Vegan for sure, I really cannot. I will tell you one thing though. Not too long ago I read (in one of the Spanish sports papes he usually writes for) Menotti saying something in the line that the best Maradona was the Maradona of Barcelona in 1983, after the hepatitis.
I remember reading the same thing. He followed it with "Messi has been playing like this version of Maradona" something like that. Right?
I'm refereing to the years in which Maradona shined (1978-81). So, excluding Boca Jrs., i think the others clubs weren't so dominant in that era, maybe exc. River too. In other words, before WC'1978 there were many good argentine footballers not playing in his country. And after the WC, joined to play abroad others like Ardiles, Bertoni, Villa, etc. So, i think the quality decreased a little bit in those years. Still a bonderline top-4 at that time, but not among the greatest ever. imho
close ... in 2012: He said Menotti: Messi is no Maradona By Patricio Figueroa | Former Argentina boss Cesar Luis Menotti has urged the media to stop comparing Lionel Messi to Diego Maradona. =================================== But in 2014 he changes his view and said Messi is the best in the world now, better than CR7. Messi was at the best level since he saw in Maradona ... Menotti: "Messi está al nivel del mejor Maradona que vi" El argentino repasó en 'La Xarxa' la actualidad del club catalán: "Messi, futbolísticamente, es más importante para el equipo que Cristiano". AS.COM 10 de enero de 2014 14:09h Messi: "Messi es el mejor del mundo. Cristiano Ronaldo está en un buen momento, ha hecho una gran temporada pero Messi futbolísticamente es más importante para el equipo. Veo mejor a Cristiano pero no alcanza lo que ha hecho Messi en el Barcelona en los últimos años. Messi está al nivel del mejor Maradona que vi".
Allow me to translate for you: "Messi is at the same level as the best Maradona that I saw" not "Messi was at the best level since he saw in Maradona"
The statements I was talking about are the following: http://www.infobae.com/2014/03/20/1...n-y-critico-el-armado-del-plantel-mundialista Menotti talking about a number of issues. If you skip to the last part he says: "A Diego lo tuve entrenando desde los 16 años hasta los 23 porque estuvo conmigo en la Selección mayor, después estuvo en el juvenil, después en el Mundial '82... Para mí después de la hepatitis, cuando yo llego (a Barcelona) y él empieza a entrenar ví al mejor Maradona de toda la vida, estaba físicamente increíble y con muchas ganas. Después viene la fractura en aquel partido, aquel accidente digo yo con Goycoetxea y eso influyó muchísimo en su estado de ánimo y también hubo influencias externas (para que terminara yéndose al Napoli)". "El Napoli era apetecible para su estilo de vida, Barcelona es más frío... yo creo que si no hubiese sido por esa lesión podríamos haber ganado muchísimas cosas más. Maradona siempre fue brillante pero no volvió con la misma intensidad que tenía antes de la lesión". "I trained Diego since he was 16 until he was 23 because he was with me in the NT, then the youth tournament, then the 1982 WC... For me after the hepatitis, when I arrived at Barcelona and he starts training again is when I saw the best Maradona of always, he was physically incredible and with tons of enthusiasm. Then came the fracture in that game, that accident with Goycoetxea I guess, and that influenced heavily his morale/spirit and there were also external influences (for him to end up leaving for Napoli)". "Napoli was appealing for his life style, Barcelona was colder... I believe that had he not suffered that injury we could have won very many things. Maradona was always brilliant but he did not return (after the fracture) with the same intensity he had before the injury."
The hapatitis was detected during December 1982. His last game was on December 5 against Real Sociedad (1-0 win, goal scored by Maradona). He did not play again until March 12 1983. On September 24 of that year Goikoetxea fractured his ankle.
Do the international results show this? I don't think so. http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method1/ccoef1984.html http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method1/ccoef1985.html http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method1/ccoef1986.html http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method1/ccoef1987.html http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method1/ccoef1988.html Note that this doesn't really matter in case of international results/successes with a club. For ex. Platini with Juventus As often discussed, many doubt whether the route at 1986 had many top opponents.
As already shown earlier: the clubs of Uruguay and Brazil did similar or better at the Copa Libertadores. Brazil even consistently better in that timeframe (1978-1981) http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads...-called-number-3.898170/page-28#post-30206953 Again, it was one of the rare instances where the losing finalist kept a higher ELO rating (1950, 1954 and 1978). That puts the 'fantastic generation' moniker into doubt.
The Uruguayan league is really mostly dependent on the success of two clubs (Penarol and Nacional), with sometimes a rotating third club being competitive (Danubio, Wanderers, etc.) It's not to be expected that this league would have as much depth as the Argentinian. The Brazilian league was also excellent at that time, featuring some great sides in Cruzeiro, Atletico Mineiro, Gremio and of course Flamengo. I would put both leagues in the top three of that time, along with the English league. For Argentina WC78, Menotti did not take the best squad he could have taken, leaving River Plate standouts Lopes, Commisso, Merlo out of the team among others. In any event, no team claimed any trophies based on ELO ratings.
Just took a quick look at the last four editions of the Champions' League knockout stage QFs onwards. Could be said that clubs of Germany and Spain did similar or better than the English. Spain even consistently better in that timeframe... But I would not go around saying that the Premier League is not one of the top leagues in the world.
Uruguay sent 5 different clubs in that timeframe, Argentina 6. Brazil even 7 different teams and performed clearly better alongside all dimensions. Stating it was a top four league in the world is a bold claim. Esp. given the standing of Brazil at that time and your citing of the national team (which won as host). At odds with: "It featured Independiente, dominant at the Libertadores, Boca Jrs which won two consecutive Libertadores, River Plate with a fantastic generation of players as basis for the WC78 winning team". Thank you.
AGREE with you ... WC78 only missed the young Maradona 18 ... and guess what? with all the fixing and advantages, they seem never miss him there LOL
Brazilian clubs did not do better than Argentinian ones in winning the Libertadores during that time frame, or for that matter reaching the final. Indeed, River Plate served as a basis for the WC winning side, but even then a few of its players were not called by Menotti and arguably should have. This is not at odds with my statement.
I calculated the average for the period 1983/84 to 1986/87 (4 seasons) 1) Premierleague = 11,047 --- last two were banned 2) Serie-A = 8,729 3) USSR = 8,263 4) Bundesliga = 6,875 5) La Liga = 6,250 6) Austria = 6,125 I guess, without the ban, the gap between Premierleague and Serie-A in the mid-80s would be closer. And i'd give a higher gap between Serie-A and USSR than the numbers shows, due to the player's quality in both leagues. Well, according the ELO in the period 1985-87. Argentina faced three top-10 teams: England, W.Germany and Uruguay. Also two bonderline top-10: Italy and Belgium. http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/greatest-generations-in-footballs-history.1381429/page-5 (post #111)
The top players (alone) don't determine the strength or depth of a league, esp. when only 1 or 2 foreigners are allowed. Yes, but how is it in comparison with other WC winners? It has been discussed very often, with some going as far to claim that only Brazil in 2002 has an easier route, since.
In a local players comparison, i think Italy was (a bit) better than USSR at mid-80s. Adding the foreign players, the advantadge is clear, imho (at least on paper). So, even having Premierleague as #1 league. A 2nd place for Serie-A is a very good consideration, don't you think? In the context of its era (mid-80s), i think it was a fair contest vs top sides. Of course, we can find examples with harder/easier routes than them.
http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/strength-of-schedule-wc-winners.1981271/#post-27075929 Argentina 2014: Switzerland 1834 Belgium 1905 Netherlands 2074 Germany 2180 I don't have the correct elo for the group stage. Right now Iran 1652, Nigeria 1715, Bosnia 1759
When looking in the database I found that at the end of the 1980s a poll among 20 national team coaches was held. Apparently Platini came at top for 'best player of the 1980s'. http://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=ddd:011018634:mpeg21:a0277 http://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=ddd:010645954:mpeg21:a0381 Also interesting is that Platini used to be very negative about the Champions League competition. http://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=ddd:011019890:mpeg21:a0564
well it's obvious as Zico only featured briefly in SerieA (1.5season) why Maradona could not make success in UCL with Barca and then Napoli! Van Basten only become great in late 80's Rummenigge was great in early 80s and fading from mid 80's ============================================= Now if one take a survey from SA point of view, that would be another different story (Eitehr Maradona or Zico will TOP)