A discussion of Maradona v Platini

Since conversation about Platini has coincided with the countdown reaching him I'll just post this too (can't remember if it's on that video above once, twice or not at all!):


Interestingly Maradona managed to score a goal that should have been disallowed vs England in 1986 wheras Platini had a good candidate for best ever disallowed goal (and perhaps it should have been at the time, but wouldn't have been nowadays). Juventus won that Intercontinental Cup anyway though.

Another aspect which he excelled at was free-kicks (Maradona too but maybe Platini was better than him but not quite as good as Zico as far as this ability goes):



And as good as his long-range passes were he was also great with the close range stuff too:


I'm not showing favouritsim with the countdown lol, but since he is sometimes seen as a top 6 player and sometimes not as a top 10 one, it's good to add to that debate.

 

Thanks for the answer. It was not so much of a 'point' but more of a question. How you rate the club career part given the about equal level of their NT career (IMO it is a more prevalent opinion to rate the club career part as about equal but I already said that). But you answered that.

Also like to repeat that my question was not about the exact order but why he is not in the same category/bracket (of about 'equal' players; Puskas, Di Stefano, Maradona, Beckenbauer, Cruijff).
I think you and certainly PDG knows that personally I'd place Platini in that bracket (and not Beckenbauer TBH) but it was intended as a question (not an argument/point) given the evaluation of the NT career displays.

EDIT:

as more detailed question:

What circumstances do you have in mind? 'Opposition faced' is not very hard to imagine: a look at the ELO rank and ELO rating clarifies this in a fairly accurate manner.

 

What about 1982 and 1986?

How did you reach that conclusion?

And what 'execution' are we referring to here?

Is there any way to validate this?

 

I guess not, although I know you have a lot of info available to you about Maradona's goals and might know how many free-kicks he actually scored. I believed Zico scored the most out of all 3 of them (I think it's been discussed on Big Soccer(?) but I didn't record any stats if they were provided). I did say maybe and I could be mis-guided to think that at this aspect the two right footers were a bit better at finding the top corner from set pieces. I think Maradona preferred to curl his efforts (he did have some against England in 1986 IIRC, although perhaps didn't shoot every time but sometimes played in a cross) but actually he might have an advantage over the Brazilian with free-kicks a bit further from the goal that he chooses to drive instead (I know he has scored in that way).

Anyway, I'd accept it's not as clear-cut as saying that Maradona was the quickest of the 3 players, or the best dribbler (although Platini could dribble well, and Zico had some great moments, a couple of which are shown on the video I posted, by swerving past players deceptively - he generally wasn't an unstoppable type dribbler and preferred to pass the ball often though).

I did think about using your 87/88 Maradona assists video instead btw , but though I especially remember the assist at Juventus (albeit for a consolation goal) I felt the other one with his whole career to be compiled from should be the choice. Perhaps your video had me thinking that assists might be a good way to go though, since everyone has seen his goals vs England and Belgium (I'm sure I could have picked a video with clips/goals from Argetinos Juniors & Boca or from Napoli or other highlights from the national team). The Cruyff video also has assists btw for everyone's info, as the title suggests it is just goals.

 

About free kicks and validation:

Of course it can be that one player received more opportunities, faced better goalkeepers and other circumstances diverged but these are the numbers (NT free kicks and free kicks in Serie A are the ones to look for).

https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/...-time-in-numbers.1980801/page-2#post-27048579

https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/...-time-in-numbers.1980801/page-4#post-27079547

Platini his numbers are higher with fewer NT and Serie A games played. But it might be that he also had more opportunities.

Zico is a bit unclear because Lucas Gomes lumped all competitions together (the 17 FK goals for Udinese includes friendlies, coppa italia etc.)
https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/...ree-kicks-of-all-the-time-in-numbers.1980801/

 

Yeah, I agree with the bolded although I suppose the numbers can give a good guide. Also I agree with Lucas's statement (copied and pasted rather than quoted but it's on the first post on that thread) - "For many it is the greatest of all time. If the fault was on the edge of the area..." - it was quite surprising to see other Brazilians taking free-kicks in the Brazil vs Italy 1982 WC game and some of them not from particularly far out - a lot of the free-kicks shown on compilations like the one I posted on this thread for example are his 'specialities' curled into a top corner from the edge of the box.

That thread is excellent and everyone can view it thoroughly if they want - there are some clips on there including some of Maradona's free-kicks I think. He got a comparative high number in Coppa Italia I noticed. Zico had the most per game in Serie A and the most overall assuming Platini didn't get 60 in France (Maradona couldn't have done that in Argentina in the short timeframe I'd assume). Platini had the best record for scoring them for his NT - here is the Platini goals for France compilation Lucas referred to:

 

Maradona scored 9 freekick goals if you include the youth NT. He scored approximately 70-80 freekick goals in his whole career.
https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/platini-va-maradons-vs-zico.1702664/page-4#post-27869091

I reckon Platini might score 65-70 goals, so, they were as great.

 

On what do you base that Platini estimate?

Also: I think it is the most appropriate way to use counts in competitive games (preferably the competitions in which both played).

 

Can you clarify these thoughts?

RE location: most would say that Platini did it in his home country and France was the host.
RE construction of teams: if Maradona his 1986 tournament is discussed, it is often said/assumed how mediocre his team was. The French team goes down as one of the most beloved ever, with their magical midfield.
RE managerial situation: what makes dealing with 'defensive minded' Bilardo different as Hidalgo?

This is not meant as an objection but as illustration of the usual narrative.

I'm not implying that I would agree with these (unqualified) narratives but "10 fools plus one genius" is of course a thing that always comes back (that covers "construction of teams" and "teams they played in"). Just like the "magic square" always returns in stories.

 

Just guess. It is impossible to base on anything. As we have 25 goals from NT+Series A, I assume he might have 40-45 from 156 goals when playing in France.

Maradona is the only player who won the world cup while being included in the all star team without his team mates.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_World_Cup_awards#All-Star_Team
This pretty much shows how people back then had a view on the 86 Argentine squad.

 

It doesn't fit in this thread but because it is totally deleted in the other thread:

Which 'boxes' does Puskas tick that Pelé doesn't? Or to a lesser extent?

I think btw that those questions fit in a 'top 50 players' thread (esp. now PDG is finished) but OK, I understand that a new one is created.


Also:
What would you say about the Bilardo-Maradona nexus vs the Platini-Hidalgo nexus.
It is generally known that Bilardo was quite cynical and he had a love-hate relationship with his star player (an equally cynical person would say: with who had Maradona not a love-hate relationship ). E.g. what would you say about the 'managerial situation'.

As necessary info for the statistical comparison: Maradona had of course also five assists while Platini had one assist in euro84. However, three of Maradona his assists were against South Korea and hence presumably before the switch to a more advanced, second-striker position.

It is funny that both played in their stand-out tournament at more advanced positions (more like a second-striker) as they are associated with.

 

If you are referring to physical impediments, I can’t recall Platini entering WC78 in any disadvantage. But maybe I’m wrong: do you know what happened?

I just don’t look at it just from a numbers perspective. If I did I can easily point out that Maradona scored around 50+ goals for the men’s NT (unofficial matches included) to boost up his numbers. There are other factors that play a role in this. I can remember Maradona reaching around 25 official goals prior to the age of 26 during the 1986 WC in less than 60 appearances for the men’s NT. After 1988 when age, injuries, and nutrition kicked in, his scoring numbers significantly dropped. There was also a gap from mid-1982 to mid-1985, when in his physical peak, he missed out on caps.

And there was many times an observation that Argentina depended solely on one player throughout the 1980s and in 1990. There was a significant perception that Maradona had to carry the weight for his teams, while Platini had either the benefit of not being favorite (1978) or later on having elite troops (82 and 86) surrounding him. Now there will always be some myth to this view: one player with an inferior squad leading them to triumphs and victories against superior opposition. He [Maradona] was viewed as the man that had to perform at his best for Argentina to have a chance in 1982, 86 and 90, while this view was not entirely shared for Platini. The pressure at times was off for him: not favorites to win in 1978 and 1982, but then in 1986 he had to deliver with a talented side around. But Maradona always had the pressure to deliver: his high price-tag and fame of being hailed as the next Pele from an early age put him in a different spot: either deliver or he’s a failure; a product of the propaganda. Platini could perform with tranquility throughout large periods early on in his career, but not so with Maradona.

Rummenigge or Keegan throughout those stages not only did they match up against him, but were considered superior at times to him, especially Rummenigge. Unfortunately, as was the case with Zico, these things tend to get brushed aside with time and they are rarely remembered in the same class as Platini, despite being considered superior at certain stages in their careers.

Apart from Ballon D’Or, what other sources in the world put him in a top 3 prior to 1979?

And are you aware that Cruyff was still viewed by many as the best player in 1979 despite not featuring in a top 5 in Ballon D'Or?


Personally, from the moment Maradona’s stardom elevated in 1979, I don’t see how Platini was even viewed in the same class as him. Only from 1983 onward does this become a serious debate, because prior to that, they were not viewed even in the same league.


I know very well about the South American player of the year awards and I realized that you only used one source for that at the time: El Mundo.

But in 1980 to 1983 there was another source that consisted of 100 or more panel of journalists: El Grafico.

El Mundo used to use around 18-20 reporters. In 1979 and 1980, Maradona was first place, 2nd place in 1981 and 3rd place in 1982.


In El Grafico in 1980 and 1981, Maradona was first place and 2nd in 1982.


By 1995 the South American awards was administered through the newspaper of El Pais and Maradona came in 2nd.


More importantly, once Maradona's fame rose, Platini never could rival him prior to 1983. In contrast, and I’ve already addressed this on many occasions, Maradona was through many sources considered from 1979-1982 as top 3 and for many the number 1 player in the world.


What is your take on that?


You seem to just focus on the numbers. But my question to you is how well did either of them perform in their respective home leagues? I say this because players like Bochini and Alonso were not shattering the goalscoring charts in Argentina, but were considered the best in their time. If I just pointed to the numbers, and relied on that, then they would look pedestrian compared to some others in their same league.

And Argentinian football was different in format to French football. There weren’t even any Cup tournaments as there was in France, where players can boost their stats against lower division sides. Platini also played one season in the second division, which Maradona never did.

I’m not saying he should have any edge because I just fail to see any comparison.

But deliver in what? A goal? A championship? Survival of relegation? Help spring forward a mid-table team? Commit a timely sliding tackle? An accurate pass? A deceptive dribble?

Execution in delivering something can be referred to in many ways. I find that term vague in sports and in a team game.

 

Very good thread ... but

Very good thread ... but I am lost in the cause or need for this?

1- Agree with you on those names ...

2- I do not quite get your comment "tick the boxes" (quality in various categories?)

3- PLATINI: as much as I like (and always put) Platini into TOP10 all time, I do NOT think he got the "what it needs" to be in the TOP5 - in other words he was "inferior" to those 5 names" - just my opinion. Same went for Bobby Charlton, Meazza, Didi, Zico Zidane ...
For me, Garrincha would make the better case in such crowd

4- last bold, AGREE with you. Maradona was the most talented (on ball skills) ever seen, but he suffered a "not so successful early career" compared to Pele/Di Stefano/Puskas/Cruijff . WC86 and Napoli were ALL to back him into #2 (as most cases) but are they ENOUGH?

 

And how do reach that conclusion?

And what about the dubious decision to deny him a goal vs Uruguay?

 

First bold, I see exactly the same. NOT to diminish Platini's talent, but he was NO WHERE on the same stance of Pele/maradona/Di Stefano/Puskas and Cruijff between 50-90's

Second bold, the ONLY player could have rivaled Maradona at time was ZICO - so called the "white Pele"

Last bold, you brought some good points there :
- Maradona did ALL: delivered goals, delivered Napoli 2 championships and last not LEAST: helped Napoli to become GREAT (Napoli relegated 3,4 years right after Maradona retired)

- for Platini, one could NEVER say the same for his fame at Juve (always among the top if not the best club in SerieA ever) He also got the FORTUNE to be with the greatest France in quality from midfield to defenders (I rated France 82-86 > France 98-02 of Zidane in term of QUALITY and BEAUTIFUL PLAY! Of course Zidane and his co achieved more )

 

There's a period from 1984-86 precisely in which he is regarded by some in that class. As years went by after his retirement, his place in many top 10 rankings grew.

It's ironic though, because he never seemed destined to receive that level of distinction when one reviews his career prior to his move to Juventus.

And Rummenigge.

 

His reputation grew up when he moved to Italy but his level of play remained the same as when he played in France. He simply gained world recognition there. Assuming his level didn't suddenly raise when he joined Juve, there's a good chance he was already in Maradona's class prior to his Italy years (not in media's opinion but based on what he actually produced on the field).

That's the way people perceived it at the time but what did Rumenigge do on the field that Platini couldn't do ? Probably nothing, but Rummenigge had the advantage to play for a bigger club, in a bigger league and for a bigger NT.

 

yeah if we assume as such.

Fact said, from 78-82 (let's drop off the ballon d'or case) there were two names surging as GREAT: Zico and Maradona.

I agree with you on Rummenigge (Vegan brough up Rummenigge, but I disagree)
His case was similar to Platini that was BOOSTED UP with UCL and Ballon d'or label - Apple to Orange with Zico/Maradona ; the two players for a low leagues across the ocean). Rummenigge was a rare talent (with ball skills) that German ever produced, however I think:
Maradona >= Zico >= Platini >= Rummenigge in "pure talents" (>= means slightly edge)

 

Even assuming numbers don't say all, don't you agree that it's hard to say that Maradona had the edge when comparing his NT carreer with Platini's one ? Both look perfectly comparable to me.

Not that I disagree with you here, but before 1982 there was also a perception that Platini had to carry the French NT. After that, you're right that it was probably easier for him mainly because Giresse took a part of the playmaking job..

But should we completely trust these opinions (as informative as they are) ? Again, what did Rummenigge or Keegan do in the late 70's that Platini couldn't do ?

I"m not sure to understand you completely here, but I don't think anyone was seriously considered to be superior to Platini in France between 1976 and 82.

Only looking at his league games (excluding the French cup and thus games with lower division sides) his goalscoring numbers are extremely good for a midfielder (contrary to Zico and Maradona his 'average' position was always that of a midfielder). Plus I can't see why the fact he played one season in second division is an argument against him : he got injured in march 1974 and couldn't prevent his team to get relegated. And he was not a mature player yet.

But why that ? (I don't want to upset you here : I'm really curious about your view on that)

The key question is (according to me) : who would you pick to make your team win a game, a tournament, a championship ? If you wish to select a playmaker (like Platini and Maradona), the most 'productive' is the one creating more chances for himself and others I suppose, and how clutch your player is in key times..

 

But how are you supposed to determine that?

Yes, no one can deny the historical power and influence of a Germany. But if I'm not mistaken it was the abilities of Rummenigge which were assessed during the early 1980s which gave him praise, not necessarily always the wins he was obtaining.

Comme relies on the Ballon D'Or years to make his argument, but why then is Rummenigge rated significantly lower than Platini in his rankings (he has Platini in top 10 and Rummenigge in top 60) when in the physical prime of their careers, Rummenigge had the edge over Platini? Why such disparity?

It's a question that still hasn't been addressed properly: How Platini was able to leapfrog into an historical top 10 ahead of Rummenigge and Zico when for large periods in their careers, Platini was viewed in a second tier category compared to them in different sources?

It's difficult to say. Because for many the crowning jewel for the status of a player with the NT in their respective eras was the coronation and success at the World Cup. If this is the case, Platini only has a bronze medal to back him up. While Maradona has a Gold and Silver medal.

If the overall stats is your criteria to judge, then it levels out.

If the criteria is silverware obtained, then Platini has two titles: Euro and Artemio Franchi.
Maradona also has 2 titles: World Cup and Artemio Franchi.

Maradona also has the Youth WC win in 1979 for his NT, but this cannot apply in comparison because Platini did not participate in such events. It is however a merit to note.

The overall team achievements pan out this way for both:
Platini
1984 Euro winner
1985 Artemio Franchi winner
1986 World Cup Bronze medal

Maradona
1986 World Cup winner
1989 Copa America Bronze medal
1990 World Cup Silver medal
1993 Artemio Franchi winner

I just think the pressure Maradona had right off the bat is a heavy burden to carry for any player. I believe Platini could operate with more tranquility because he wasn't expected to win right from the start. I believe the level of scrutiny on Maradona made it harder for him to perform, and that level of attention also subjected him to the worse conditions of violence from defenders.

No, but people on this forum use those opinions when it's convenient for them.

I don't know. As far as I'm concerned I never placed them above or below him. But it's important to put things into the historical context of that time, to enlighten those that have misconceptions, so that younger generations can understand the reality of what was going on. For example, one of those false beliefs is that Platini was considered the best player in the early part of the 1980s. But this is simply not true.

I didn't mean that. My point was that Comme likes to draw comparisons based on appearances and scoring numbers. Do you think that's the appropriate way to settle things?

I know. And I never disputed any of Platini's qualities.

But I also don't see Zico fulfilling the same role of either as well: he was a more advanced player in my view than them. (I believe you pointed this out in the past). You just don't score as much as Zico did from the midfield, it's not that simple. He was bound to be used as a forward in attack and enter the opponents' box more often, which in turn transformed him into a striker once he was going for the strike.

I always viewed Platini as a central midfielder, which wasn't the case with Maradona whom liked to work more on the flanks and draw opponents into weak spots where he could capitalize utilizing his ability to use his close ball control and trickery to then deliver tight angle crosses.

This view of yours and mine contradicts what Comme said when he viewed both Maradona and Platini in same functions/roles in one of his posts.

I don't hold anything against him. I just don't see the comparison of an Argentinian who played under different settings, under different circumstances with that of a Frenchman, as Comme has arbitrarily chosen to do.

I don't see any correlation of what was transpiring in Europe with South America. It's the same reason that I never felt a legitimate comparison could be made between Zico and Platini during large periods in their careers. It's that simple.

Rummenigge must be brought into this discussion because he was at times viewed on the same level as Maradona, and above Platini and Zico.