I wondered if there had been a combined UK-team at the 1982 World Cup, which players from England, Scotland and Northern Ireland (all qualified for the final stages) would have made the 22-men squad? England did fairly well at that World Cup, being eliminated despite being unbeaten. So the question arises, what could a combined UK-team have achieved if they could have cherry-picked 22 players from the 66 listed below? The same could be done for 1958 (when Wales was also part of the tournament) and 1986. These were the rosters: England 1 GK Ray Clemence 05 Aug 1948 Tottenham Hotspur 2 DF Viv Anderson 29 Aug 1956 Nottingham Forest 3 MD Trevor Brooking 02 Oct 1948 West Ham United 4 DF Terry Butcher 28 Dec 1958 Ipswich Town 5 MD Steve Coppell 09 Jul 1955 Manchester United 6 DF Steve Foster 24 Sep 1957 Brighton HA 7 FW Kevin Keegan 14 Feb 1951 Southampton 8 FW Trevor Francis 19 Apr 1954 Manchester City 9 MD Glenn Hoddle 27 Oct 1957 Tottenham Hotspur 10 MD Terry McDermott 08 Dec 1951 Liverpool 11 FW Paul Mariner 22 May 1953 Ipswich Town 12 DF Mick Mills 04 Jan 1949 Ipswich Town 13 GK Joe Corrigan 18 Nov 1948 Manchester City 14 DF Phil Neal 20 Feb 1951 Liverpool 15 MD Graham Rix 23 Oct 1957 Arsenal 16 MD Bryan Robson 11 Jan 1957 Manchester United 17 DF Kenny Sansom 26 Sep 1958 Arsenal 18 DF Phil Thompson 21 Jan 1954 Liverpool 19 MD Ray Wilkins 14 Sep 1956 Manchester United 20 FW Peter Withe 30 Aug 1951 Aston Villa 21 FW Tony Woodcock 06 Dec 1955 1.FC Cologne (GER) 22 GK Peter Shilton 18 Sep 1949 Nottingham Forest Scotland 1 GK Alan Rough 25 Nov 1951 Partick Thistle 1978 2 DF Danny McGrain 01 May 1950 Glasgow Celtic 1974 3 DF Francis Gray 27 Oct 1954 Leeds United (ENG) 4 MD Graeme Souness 06 May 1953 Liverpool (ENG) 1978 5 DF Alan Hansen 13 Jun 1955 Liverpool (ENG) 6 DF Willie Miller 02 May 1955 Aberdeen 7 MD Gordon Strachan 09 Feb 1957 Aberdeen 8 FW Kenny Dalglish 04 Mar 1951 Liverpool (ENG) 1974,78 9 FW Alan Brazil 15 Jun 1959 Ipswich Town (ENG) 10 MD John Wark 04 Aug 1957 Ipswich Town (ENG) 11 FW John Robertson 20 Jan 1953 Nottingham Forest (ENG) 1978 12 GK George Wood 26 Sep 1952 Arsenal (ENG) 13 DF Alex McLeish 21 Jan 1959 Aberdeen 14 DF David Narey 12 Jun 1956 Dundee United 15 FW Joe Jordan 15 Dec 1951 AC Milan (ITA) 1974,78 16 MD Asa Hartford 24 Oct 1950 Manchester City (ENG) 1978 17 DF Alan Evans 12 Oct 1956 Aston Villa (ENG) 18 FW Steve Archibald 27 Sep 1956 Tottenham Hotspur (ENG) 19 FW Paul Sturrock 10 Oct 1956 Dundee United 20 MD David Provan 08 May 1956 Glasgow Celtic 21 DF George Burley 03 Jun 1956 Ipswich Town (ENG) 22 GK Jim Leighton 24 Jul 1958 Aberdeen Northern Ireland 1 GK Pat Jennings 12 Jun 1945 Arsenal (ENG) 2 DF Jimmy Nicholl 28 Dec 1956 Toronto Blizzard (CAN) 3 DF Mal Donaghy 13 Sep 1957 Luton Town (ENG) 4 MD David McCreery 16 Sep 1957 Tulsa Roughnecks (USA) 5 DF Chris Nicholl 12 Oct 1946 Southampton (ENG) 6 DF John O'Neill 11 Mar 1958 Leicester City (ENG) 7 FW Noel Brotherston 18 Nov 1956 Blackburn Rovers (ENG) 8 MD Martin O'Neill 01 Mar 1952 Norwich City (ENG) 9 FW Gerry Armstrong 23 May 1954 Watford (ENG) 10 MD Sammy McIlroy 02 Aug 1954 Stoke City (ENG) 11 FW Billy Hamilton 09 May 1957 Burnley (ENG) 12 DF John McClelland 07 Dec 1955 Glasgow Rangers (SCO) 13 DF Samuel Nelson 01 Apr 1949 Brighton HA (ENG) 14 MD Thomas Cassidy 18 Nov 1950 Burnley (ENG) 15 MD Thomas Finney 06 Nov 1952 Cambridge (ENG) 16 FW Norman Whiteside 07 May 1965 Manchester United (ENG) 17 GK Jim Platt 26 Jan 1951 Middlesbrough (ENG) 18 FW John Jameson 11 Mar 1958 Glentoran FC 19 MD Patrick Healy 27 Sep 1955 Coleraine FC 20 MD James Cleary 27 May 1956 Glentoran FC 21 FW Robert Campbell 13 Sep 1956 Bradford City (ENG) 22 GK George Dunlop 16 Jan 1956 Linfield FC All information taken from "Planet World Cup".
Interesting topic. In theory the side would be of higher quality than just an England side but would that've been enough to get out of the Spain/West Germany group in the 2nd phase if given England's group? Also, the players I'd pick might've either not been first choice automatically (Anderson/Hoddle for example) or not played up to their club form in the tournament (Hansen/Dalglish - but would they've done better in a combined side?). The following highlighting of Gregoriak's post with the chosen players in blue for first choice and bold for squad members shows the side/squad I'd like to see/feel would have the most potential: The formation would be 4-4-2 like follows: ---------------Shilton------------ Anderson---Miller---Hansen---Sansom Strachen---Hoddle-Robson----Robertson ---------Francis---Dalglish----------- I know Miller and Hansen did have a famous mix-up though!
I included Narey partly due to his goal against Brazil although George Burley and possibly McGrain if he wasn't far past his best might be alternatives. Souness could've been included too maybe instead of one of the defenders as he wouldn't be far out of his prime either. If not then Martin O'Neill could be cover for central midfield as well as edging out Coppell for the backup right-wing slot (Francis could also fill in there if necessary). Wilkins might've been better than Brooking by that point (assuming Brooking was getting a bit old; and he did carry an injury as did Keegan). I think it's a pretty good squad but who knows whether it could've matched Italy? England did beat France 3-1 in the group stage but perhaps France hadn't fully got into their stride or established their best line-up at that point.
interesting idea ... Imagine IF UK has been a "combined team" for years ... they would surely be among the true power house in Euro and WC ... well they could have already won Euro68 with a big boost from G.BEST! Next please continue with the case of WC90 England team ... (with presence of other UK players (than just English), they might had more chance than WC82 I think)
Yes Charlton was a given choice. Denis Law + G.Best would be an excessive force in attack to existing England team, no doubt
With a fully fit Keegan and Brooking, England would likely have got through the second phase in 82. Adding just Dalglish would have made a huge difference.
Agree so, but would they be "good enough" to beat Brazil82 and Italy82 ? very doubtful. WC90 would be a better chance in this "imaginary" scenario
Brazil are irrelevant to this discussion, as England/UK would have played France (who they beat soundly earlier in the tournament) in the semi finals had they advanced from the second phase. As for Italy, maybe not, but in a one off final anything could have happened.
Off the top of my head I'd have to say in 1990 there'd be less chance that players from the other nations would be picked in preference to the players that represented England so there's not as much difference between England and UK as there could be in 1982. I'd agree that the 1990 England team was closer to winning the Cup though, in so far as while they both effectively got knocked out by West Germany in marginal calls in '82 there was further to go and in '90 the German team that beat England on penalties did go on to win the Tournament. A Caniggia-less Argentina with Maradona having issues with injuries would probably not be as difficult to beat as Italy '82 or indeed Argentina '86.
Let's name some (in 86 and 90) to see how betetr the team would be, shall we? WC90: Any of these names shall be selected? Wales: Ian Rush & M Hughes (sure call), Dean Saunder and G.Speed? Ireland: Paul Mc Grath, Townsend, and young R,Keane ? Scotland: McLeod, Cooper?
Not sure... I think in '90 the main Scots in contention might've been the likes of McAllister (but Gascoigne and Platt starred), maybe Hendry, maybe McCoist. If it's UK I guess Republic of Ireland isn't allowed but just Northern Ireland and I don't think the likes of Tommy Wright, Kingsley Black or Colin Clarke would be seen as being ahead of the English players for the team. If Republic of Ireland was included then McGrath would have had a chance. Keane hadn't yet played for Forest - in theory he could've made the squad in retrospect but even so he'd again be in competition with Gascoigne and Platt. I'm not sure Hughes is a better option or would be picked ahead of Beardsley but it's debateable. Rush would've been better for '86 but would a partnership between him and Lineker be as successful as playing Beardsley in support of Lineker? - he'd be in the squad in '86 though and who knows with him available vs Argentina what could've happened? Dalglish didn't go to the '86 World Cup anyway. Ratcliffe of Wales might've made the '86 team and again if including Ireland his Everton team-mate Sheedy might even have done so too although by the looks of John Barnes's performance against Argentina it would seem he should've been first choice (although the team had done well without him before the Argentina game). Saunders might not've got ahead of Lineker/Beardsley in '90 and although Barnes didn't have a great World Cup he'd likely be considered better than Speed in '90 too. I'm not sure whether Gregoriak was just including the teams that qualified - if so Scotland did both years and Northern Ireland did in '86 but Wales didn't either time. The Republic of Ireland qualified in '90.
I left out Wales in 1982 because there was not squad info available on them, as they didn't qualify. But if a combined UK-team had been assembled which qualified for a World Cup, then also Welsh players would have been part of it (if good enough). Assumed "United Kingdom" had won the 1982 World Cup, it is important to see that all four countries would then have had a claim on winning a World Cup, somewhat diluting the joy and pride of all involved. For example, imagine United Kingdom had met Italy in the final and they won 2-1. Both goals were scored by Dalglish and the assists came from Souness and Strachan. Would that be really a World Cup triumph to be enjoyed by English fans? Many Scots would endlessly brag about that victory being "Scottish" and hence Scotland being the true World Champions and not "United Kingdom". Just a scenario. Could be the other way round, as well.
Denis Law was injured in May 1968 when United beat Benfica at Wembley. So I guess he might not have featured in the Euro 1968 championship decisive games? George Best despised the English national team. At least that's what I get from reading a 1969 interview with him for German football magazine "Kicker". Nothing but scorn and derision for the 1966 World Cup winners came from his mouth.
Sporting teams are pretty much what provides the identity for the various nations. If you took away the teams, I doubt that such identity would exist to the same degree. This sort of thing already happens in many more sports. For instance it is often joked that when Andy Murray is winning he's British, when he's losing he's Scottish. The best player to add in 1990 would have been Paul McStay, but David Platt did come in and replace Bryan Robson very well.
Your point is valid as reality: Law's injuries, and also I read the same about Best's bio. However this thread is an Imagine no more no less. IF UK nations were a ONEteam , I am sure Best would have no issue to play
UK teams in top-10 NT This is a list with the better UK teams in World Ranking. Circa 1930 Scotland-3rd; England-6th Circa 1938 Scotland-3rd; England-5th Circa 1950 England-4th; Scotland-7th Circa 1966 England-1st; other UK no top-10 Circa 1978 England-6th; Scotland-7th Circa 1982 England-5th; other UK no top-10 Circa 1990 England-5th; other UK no top-10 Source: ELO ratings for NTs all over history Top-10 NT for each Big Tournament So basically, will be a England+Scotland combination, with some inclusions: Wales: Meredith, J.Charles, Rush, Southall N.Ireland: McCracken, Blanchflower, McIlroy, Gregg, Best, Jennings
Wales in the 1982 Home International Championships: April 27 in Cardiff: 0-1 v England May 24 in Glasgow: 0-1 v Scotland May 27 in Wrexham: 3-0 v Northern Ireland (scorers: Curtis, Rush, Nicholas) Friendly June 2 in Toulouse: 1-0 v France (Rush) Squad list involved in above matches. (Not 100% sure on positions) Caps/goals are as of the France friendly. GK- Dai Davies ............. 1 Apr 1948 .... Swansea City .............. 51/0 GK- Neville Southall ..... 16 Sept 1958 ... Everton ...................... 1/0 DF- Paul Price ............ 23 Mar 1954 .... Tottenham Hotspur ...... 14/1 DF- Joey Jones ............ 4 Mar 1955 .... Wrexham .................... 46/0 DF- Nigel Stevenson ..... 2 Nov 1958 .... Swansea City ............... 3/0 DF- Peter Nicholas ...... 10 Nov 1959 .... Arsenal ...................... 25/2 DF- Kevin Ratcliffe ...... 12 Nov 1960 .... Everton ..................... 11/0 MF- Brian Flynn .......... 12 Oct 1955 .... Leeds United ............... 52/5 MF- Byron Stevenson ... 7 Sept 1956 ... Leeds United ............... 15/0 MF- Robbie James ....... 23 Mar 1957 .... Swansea City .............. 14/3 MF- Chris Marustik ...... 10 Aug 1961 .... Swansea City ............... 5/0 FW- Leighton James .... 16 Feb 1953 .... Swansea City ............. 53/10 FW- Alan Curtis .......... 16 Apr 1954 .... Swansea City .............. 27/5 FW- Mickey Thomas ..... 7 July 1954 .... Brighton & Hove Albion .. 30/3 FW- Gordon Davies ....... 3 Aug 1955 .... Fulham ........................ 4/0 FW- Carl Harris ............ 3 Nov 1956 .... Leeds United ............... 24/1 FW- Ian Walsh ............ 4 Sept 1958 ... Swansea City .............. 18/7 FW- Ian Rush ............. 20 Oct 1961 .... Liverpool ..................... 9/2 I'll also add these three veterans who likely would've traveled to Spain '82 had Wales qualified: DF- Leighton Phillips .... 26 Sept 1949 ... Charlton Athletic ......... 58/0 MF- John Mahoney ...... 20 Sept 1946 ... Swansea City ............. 49/1 MF-Terry Yorath ......... 27 Mar 1950 .... Vancouver Whitecaps ... 59/2
Re: UK teams in top-10 NT Wales had Giggs of course. Would England have qualified in '94 with him? How far would they have gone in '98 (maybe difficult to win with 10 men anyway but who knows)?
Re: UK teams in top-10 NT The 1978 WC Finals might be interesting because England did not qualify, but Scotland had an awesome team on "paper". I don't know enough about England in 1978 to suggust anything, but Keegan and Shilton looked interesting.
Potentially most interesting would be to ignore England, and just focus on Scotland, Wales and NI. Wales and Northern Ireland have traditionally produced high quality players in the one position Scotland normally struggle: goalkeeper. Add Southall and Rush to Scotland's 1986 squad and it transforms it. ------------Southall --Nicol -- Miller -- McLeish -- Malpas Cooper -- McStay -- Souness -- Strachan ---------Rush -- Dalglish Bench: Jennings, Ratcliffe, Whiteside, Hughes etc
Re: UK teams in top-10 NT Of course Ryan Giggs i'd tend to ignore actual players, since they are commonly mentioned. I also think that "on paper" UK enjoys their golden generation in late 70s (talking about modern football)
I recently stumbled across a 1980 "Kicker" article in which the question is raised, what if (West) Germany would not compete with a national team but with four regional national teams just like the British do with England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. "Kicker" seperated West Germany in the following regions: North, West, South and South West. Players selected according to their place of birth. North ---Janzon---------Wenzel-------Littbarski ------Sidka-------Wohlers------Memering --Sziedat----Demuth----Kliemann----Dremmler -------------------Junghans Bench: Stein, Otten, Geils, Hieronymus, Grobe, Reimann, Milewski West --K.H.Rummenigge--Hrubesch---Del'Haye -----K.Allofs-------Bongartz-----Tenhagen ----Dietz-----Jakobs-----Hannes-----Horsmann -----------------Schumacher Bench: Nigbur, Cullmann, Lameck, Burgsmüller, H.Nickel, Lienen, Abramczik South ------H.Müller------Fischer------Kelsch -----Schuster------Breitner-----Matthäus ---B.Förster----Kh.Förster---Stielike----Kaltz -----------------------Immel Bench: Roleder, Martin, Augenthaler, Niedermayer, Borchers, D.Müller, Magath South West ----------Geyer---------Seel--------Remark ------------Blau------W.Schäfer-----Riedl -------Hidien-----Briegel------Zewe-----H.Zimmermann -----------------------Kargus Bench: Franke, Theis, Huber, Scheller, Melzer, Brummer, Ehrmanntraut.
A very interesting quote, Greg Some subs that can be starters were: Stein, Abramczyk, Magath & Franke. Specially the 1st & 3rd. Also the West & South regions were the stronger sides of all. That's makes me wonder. Those regions were the usual provider for class players to Germany through history?
Yes, you could say that. West and South do have the largest populations. "Kicker" seperated the regions as follows: North = Lower-Saxony, Schleswig-Holstein, Hamburg & Bremen (the latter two city-states) West = Northrhine-Westphalia South = Bavaria, Hesse, Baden-Württemberg South West = Rhineland-Palatinate, Saarland