9/14: Dallas vs. New England [R]

Watching the game, I thought it was clear that one player in my opinion (well, ok, excepting TnT) is making a big difference to the Revs.....

Daouda Kante!

He just puts in the plays when you need them. I think he had a great game against Dallas. Llamosa, on the other hand, has me worried a bit.

 

(I also saw this come up later)

I thought we went through this after USA/GER - given that it prevented a goal, the referee has two choices: no call (not deliberate) or PK + red card (deliberate). There's no middle ground.

And if it was truly not deliberate, it shouldn't have been called. Being somewhat out of the way here, I've not had a chance to see the play in question, so I can't say whether it should be a point of argument or not.

 

Oscar for best impression of a goalkeeper goes to Ryan Suarez. He's got no beef, unless he can explain why his arms were over his head.

KANTE was huge. He does play on the edge, so the pk call didn't surprise me.

Harris also played a great game, although starting that standing in the corner stuff with ten minutes remaining is a bad idea. I think it's a bad idea anytime. Why not a "four corners" keep away? The lost every throw-in decision after they started that b.s.

 

If you want to have a good serving of "Sour Grapes" read the Burm board about the game. They are after Brian Halls head for the PK call and red card calls. I wonder if any of them ever has read the rule book. They are one angry group.

I strongly suggest that we not go over to their Board and engage in a game if rebuttle. We have had a good relationship with the Burn gang over the years and right now they are just pissed about their teams collapse in the past month. But what they are posting make fun reading---for a change it's not the Revs that have been snake bitten.

 

In reference to the question of whether the Rev are a bad, mediocre or good team; well, the jury is still out, certainly. However, they are a motivated team that performs at or near their abilities the majority of the time. In other words, they are a professional outfit on a consistent basis and that is a HUGE improvement over the past.

We certainly need some additional quality. Left and center back, central and left midfield and up front. Can some of that be done internally, as it has with the improvement of Heaps, Pierce (when healthy) and Hernandez as well as the remodelling of Wolde? This also can be ascribed to coaching. Somebodies are showing these players how to get better, they aren't just doing it themselves. How often has that happened in the past with this team? I think it is fair to say now that when a young player comes to this team they have a good chance of learning and improving and not just by playing. Sure, we haven't seen it with Asad, Fuller, etc. and the jury is still out on Downing but I note progress and I ascribe that the SN and the other coaches.

JIM DOW

 

Well, you can half-way understand their frustration. The game was almost as important for the Burn as it was for the Revs - and in the first 40 minutes something happens that more or less decides the outcome of the game (against Dallas).

Actually, I was pretty much in agreement that it was a bad call (based on the bad angle shot shown repeatedly on FSN) until immediately before the end of the broadcast they showed a better/closer angle of the incident. In the last one, not only were Suarez' hands clearly away form his body, they looked like they were actually moving away form his body (as if he were reaching out). This angle erased any doubts I had had.

I'll tell you one thing I've just about had my fill of though: MLS players spouting off at officials like spoiled kids who've had a toy taken away. Part of the reason I stopped watching B-ball and gorilla-ball over the years is the continual childish antics of the athletes in these sports. It just annoys me to no end.

Suarez' and Mathis' theatrics last weekend have become the rule rather than the exception for frustrated players who've suffered an unfavorable call. Yet week-in and week-out it continues, and if anything it's getting worse (it's gotten to the point where I can barely stand the sight of Clint Mathis anymore). What the league needs to do, since nothing else seems to be curbing the behavior, is to start fining/penalizing the team bench for these kinds of incidents. If Jeffries/Zambrano/Nicols risked missing games because of this crap, maybe they'd make a point of getting through to these players.

Anyway, just a rant, but it's really starting to piss me off.

 

Before we laugh too hard at the Burn fans, remember that last year there was a lot of debate on these boards about whether Wright should have been tossed from the SJ game on another handball stopping a shot. In fact, some people felt that Kamler's sending off was harsh when he took out Bocanegra from behind.

Secondly, ElJefe, were you at the game? If so, what in the world was going on at halftime? It seemed like we were getting these quick cutaways to some kind of overweight dancing contest...

As for the red card, I doubt if protecting your face from the ball is a valid excuse at that level.

 

There was also a play in 98 or 99 that I simply couldn't believe at the time. Ivan McKinley headed the ball over the end line and on its way, the ball hit McKinley's hand. Red Card and a PK, which Ian Feuer blocked. I couldn't even understand the PK, since to see intent would have involved giving McKinley an awful lot of credit on a bang-bang play. To say nothing of the red, since the ball was going over the end line.

All I've seen of Saturday's game so far is the first 10 minutes and the Suarez play, and I've certainly plenty of RC/PK combos on similar playes over the years.

The Revs are 7th in Fouls committed and in Red Cards (and the Burn 5th and 4th), so I don't think either team can be accused of true thuggery. It sounds like things got pretty chippy, but there is a difference.

 

This game got a little chippy, but at least it didn't get to the point of the Colorado game. Realistically, for most MLS teams, the playoffs have already started.

 

I think stronger sanctions against dissent, in general, would improve the game considerably. Other sports don't put up with it, why does soccer? The only person saying anything to the ref should be the captain, and even they should be on their best formal behavior when doing so. Suarez's absurd reaction is all too typical. I hope he gets a nice long extra suspension out of it. The prospect of missing three or four more games, in addition to the next one, might encourage red-card recipients to take them with a little more grace.

 

Having said this, you should see the Metros board after the red cards. One of the latest threads was titled "Kevin Stott deserves Halal Butchery " (referring to the ref).

 

Unfortunately, they'll more likely fine him about $200 bucks and he'll be back week after next. The league a) knows the players don't make enough money to fine them substantially, b) doesn't want to piss off fans by keeping out players that could effect a team's forturnes (especially in the playoffs).

Remember Ante Ratzoff's classic hair-pull-and-hissy-fit number in 2000? Nary a slap on the wrist.

This is why they should go after the coaches - because no coach wants to be watching from home when his team is playing a big game. The coach is the one who has to get the word through to the players.

 

I couldn't agree more strongly. Some of the hyper-aggressive dissent that players like Susarez, Mathis, Diallo, Broome et al have shown in the past week should result not only in cards but in stiff fines. I believe that if all the Refs in MLS started handing out cards for such dissenting behavior and the league started fining the Bench for such player behavior it would stop rather quickly. Anyone watching EPL games can see that respectful response to unpopular calls on players is possable.

 

After downloading the QuickTime video from MLSnet.com, I'm torn.

On one hand, Suarez clearly turns his head away from the play and brings his arms together in front of him.

On the other hand, his arms are moving away from his body and towards the direction of the ball before it gets to him, and it doesn't appear as if the ball was going to hit him in the face.

I could see how Suarez could claim it was unintentional, and how Brian Hall could see the same play and think that it was intentional.

 

I also think people need to remember that a D sliding around with his arms out, even without swatting at the ball, is intentionally trying to take up space so the ball can't get by.

KF

 

Ah come on folks. This debating the hand ball call is overdone This isn't a court of law--this is soccer. Just about everywhere around the world--if a player stops a goal with his hands he gets called for it--period. It's a call made by a human being (ref), in real time, on the spot and almost always its called if seen. No one--I'm mean-- no one gets involved in splitting hairs about it being unintentional. Stop a goal with your hands and you get called--period.

 

Unless you're Germany in the WC!!

 

I bet a few young fans learned some new words.

The Suarez red card/PK call - yes, he may have been protecting his face, but as I recall his arms were outstretched which made him take up as much space as possible in front of the net to try to prevent a goal/obvious goal scoring opportunity.

The Kante PK call - Revs fans can argue that the Olivares forearm to Heaps' face should have been called before Olivares ever got to the box.

Both teams had chances, both keepers had saves and the Revs put one of their chances away and got 3 points.

Was it pretty? No. I'm sure I didn't see half the fouls. What you see at the match is often different from what the TV broadcast lets you see. You can tell it's playoff time.

 

I have to agree with you Jim. The jury is still out, but I have certainly enjoyed the last couple of weeks. Yes, there is still work to be done and yes, we still need some additional quality. I give a lot of credit to Coaches Steve Nicol, Matt Driver and John Murphy for turning things around. I also have to give credit to several players that many of us roasted on the boards earlier in the season for stepping up, accepting their roles and getting the job done. I don't recall hearing about lockerroom trouble this year and I think it's (partially at least) because the players believe in their coaches, the coach has found a system that is working for the players, and they're getting the job done as a team.

Certainly things haven't been easy with an early season coaching change, a major trade, injuries, front office changes etc., but it appears they are coming together. How far that takes us this season remains to be seen. But as Jim Dow said in another thread (and I agreed with him there too), there is a group that inspires confidence for the future here. I hope that Steve Nicol is given a chance to continue to build on what he started here a few months ago. I'd rather see us shift gears than get stuck in neutral or reverse as it seemed we were in years past.

 

Actually, I think the only words the young fans don't already know are ones that are IN the dictionary!

Suarez did exactly what he was trying to do: block the ball any way possible in a desperate situation - when you throw your arms out and the ball hits them, you can't really claim there's no intent ("I wasn't intending to touch the ball, I was just trying to have the ball hit me"?).

 

Red, yellow or blue?

Suarez had a split second to react. How does anyone know what he was thinking, or what his intent was?

His first intent was to get into position to stop the ball. That much was clear.
Then Wolde's shot was blasted toward his face.
Is there anyone in Suarez's position that wouldn't try to protect themselves in that situation?
If you can say yes, you either don't know your own reflex actions or are a liar.
Of course you'd try and protect yourself.

How about if he raised his arms to cover his face and Wolde's shot had hit him in the stomach?
That would have been a blocked shot, no penalty kick and no red card and what would we have been saying then?

The Suarez play was a clear penalty. What it was beyond that is still subject to debate.

 

Re: Red, yellow or blue?

I'm not a ref, but the general response from people who are (or claim to be) refs in cases like this is that the ref should rule on the player's action and not try and fathom what the player may or may not have been intending to do. Suarez, for whatever reason, put his hands in front of a shot which was headed into the net. Also, in terms of the self-defense argument, this isn't really valid, or we would routinely see defenders blocking shots with their hands because the ball might hit them. And I would probably put my hands up to protect my face, but I'm not a professional soccer player. I know I've seen action stop in MLS games at least a half a dozen times to allow a player to reccover from taking a ball to the face, the latest being Etch getting nailed by a free kick last week. I can't recall any field players handling the ball because it was headed towards their face.

 

I think what may have prompted the red card is the F-bombs that immediately began flowing from Suarez's mouth after being tagged for a PK.

Suarez, FWIW, has not been one to cover himself in glory when it comes to refs and linesman. The Boy is very outspoken.

Payback? Maybe...