48 teams - 12 groups of 4

Discussion in 'FIFA and Tournaments' started by JLSA, May 21, 2018.

  1. JLSA

    JLSA Member

    Nov 11, 2003
    Sadly, all the talk around the 48 team World Cup seems to point to 16 Groups of 3.

    This is, frankly, ugly.

    So, what better way to waste my time (and, unless you stop now, yours as well) than by trying to get a workable 12 groups of 4 thing out there.

    Key criteria.
    12 groups of 4 (preferably seeded like this time around - that is, reasonably well)
    Keep teams from same group apart as long as possible.
    Prevent (at least as much as in the current 32 team comp) meaningless matches - or matches where you don't need to try.
    Make it as much like it is now, noting that some things have to be different.

    I think I have met all these - sadly there could be teams that play 8 matches.

    Like now there are twice as many games as teams (96 in all, assuming a 3rd place playoff).

    So, lets get time wasting.

    Firstly we have the groups of 4.
    They are just like they are at present except for two differences.
    One - there are 12 of them.
    Two - rather than being "grouped" into four pairs (for the second round) they are grouped into four trios.
    So, the third match day for groups A,B and C is the same. D,E and F finish on the same day, GH and I then J,K and L.

    As now, the top two teams advance - to the ROUND of 24.

    The round of 24 sees the follow matches
    Day W - A1 v B2, B1 v C2 and C1 v A2
    Day X - D1 v E2, E1 v F2 and F1 v D2
    Day Y - G1 v H2, H1 v I2 and I1 v G2
    Day Z - J1 v K2, K1 v L2 and L1 v J2

    Now the magic happens.

    Each day sees three winners - and each set of three teams is ranked according to their results over the four matches they have played. For their round of 24 match, the result after 90 minutes is what counts (so a win in extra time is a draw for ranking purposes). The teams are ranked in the usual way - points, GD, GS, discipline, FIFA ranks. However, if two teams are equal on points and both saw their round of 24 matches go into extra time - a win AET trumps a win on penalties.

    This now creates 4 rankings - W1, W2 and W3 and the same for Days X, Y and Z.

    Each top seed gets a bye, while the other 8 teams play in the QUALIFICATION ROUND.
    That sees W2 v X3, X2 v W3, Y2 v Z3 and Z2 v Y3.

    Then it's quarter finals as before.
    QF1 - W1 v winner Y2/Z3
    QF2 - X1 v winner Z2/Y3
    QF3 - Y1 v winner W2/X3
    QF4 - Z1 v winner X2/W3

    Semi-finals see QF1 v QF4 and QF2 v QF3. This would be the earliest that two teams from the same initial group could meet (and only if they were ranked 1st and 3rd in their section).

    All up (including final and 3rd place) 96 matches.

    Some thinking and notes.
    -Yellow cards would be cancelled either after the round of 24 (I think better) or the qualification round (some may feel fairer). If it is after the round of 24 then seeded teams get an extra advantage in terms of keeping players later on.
    -It is almost impossible for a team to have a "pointless" match in terms of seeding for the qualification round - you are unlikely to not try in your round of 24 match and its only in really unrealistic cases that you would be sure of being seeded before your third group game. Effectively every match matters at least as much as now.
    -You will note that a team that finishes 2nd in its group COULD be seeded ahead of the group winner even if both get past the round of 24. That's most likely if they ended the group stage equal on points, in which case it doesn't seem wrong to reverse that after an additional match.
    -Getting a seeded position after the round of 24 would seem to be vital in terms of player rest - hence teams would try in all matches.

    The complications of this system would seem to be:
    -Fans needs to "reset" their travel plans twice - once after the group stage (when they find out if they are 1st or 2nd) and then after the round of 24 (when the seeding determines their fate). I don't think that's a massive additional burden - although it might be tricky to follow your team through the whole tournament - especially in a big country (or countries).
    -I haven't tried to schedule this in full - so I don't know how you would fit in all in - the 3rd group matches and Round of 24 would look very much like now, and the qualification round would eat into rest days.
    -Getting a seeded position after the round of 24 would seem to be vital in terms of player rest - hence this scheme may not be favoured by those who place a high rating on that side of things.
    -96 matches is (I think) another step up in terms of logistics. Although, multiple hosts (and some major countries) could surely cope.

    Also, my initial thought was to seed the 1st teams in each Group Section and then play a system which would have two Rounds of 16 (the first with eight byes) like - if A1 and B1 and ranked best in groups A/B/C then A1 and B1 get Byes, C1vA2 and B2vC2 (if A1 and C1 best then B1vC2, A2vB2 - if B1 and C1 best then A1vB2, A2vC2) and then start crossing from there - but it actually seemed weirder somehow (and the above looks neater in its descriptions). It has exactly as many games however. It might be preferred , but would also be far more likely to see teams not needing to try in their third group match.

    Anyway, if you've got this far - you clearly have too much time on your hands.

    This is the end of the post. I'll mock up a tournament as well, just to show how it might work.

    J
     
  2. JLSA

    JLSA Member

    Nov 11, 2003
    Anyway - why not double down on this lunacy and see what it looks like.
    Assumptions - WC2026 is played in the USA (they can't even be bothered to pretend they can stand Casa Trudeau anymore, and Canada fail to qualify - quelle horreur.)

    Confed allocations are what I think I read somewhere else - with some playoffs or something.
    Anyway - it's the following (AFC8, CAF10, CONCACAF 6+1, CONMEBOL 6, OFC 1, UEFA 16). I selected the betterish teams from these areas somehow and then seeded them thusly
    POT 1 - USA, ARG, BRA, GER, CHI, BEL, FRA, COL, POR, URU, ESP, SUI
    POT 2 - POL, WAL, ENG, ITA, CRO, MEX, PER, CRC, EGY, NED, ISL, IRL
    POT 3 - SVK, SEN, CMR, IRN, BFA, TUN, COD, KOR, NGA, GHA, SWE, CIV
    POT 4 - MAR, JPN, PAN, AUS, KSA, UZB, HON, UAE, JAM, GUA, QAT, NZL

    In addition to these seeds (usual rules only 2 UEFA teams), the top 4 seeds get put into groups A (USA - as host), F G and L - to give them an "advantage" in the seeding race.

    So here are your 2026 groups.
    Group A - United States, Cameroon, United Arab Emirates and England
    Group B - Spain, Egypt, Guatemala and Sweden
    Group C - Belgium, Australia, Congo DR and Mexico
    Group D - Colombia, Uzbekistan, Croatia and Burkina Faso
    Group E - Uruguay, Senegal, Iceland and Qatar
    Group F - Argentina, Italy, Honduras and Ghana
    Group G - Germany, Korea Republic, Morocco and Peru
    Group H - Chile, Tunisia, Republic of Ireland and Jamaica
    Group I - France, Poland, Iran and New Zealand
    Group J - Switzerland, Nigeria, Panama and Wales
    Group K - Portugal, Slovakia, Costa Rica and Japan
    Group L - Brazil, Netherlands, Saudi Arabia and Côte d'Ivoire

    Standard structure 1v2, 3v4 then 1v3, 4v2 and 4v1 and 2v3 (so United States v England on the 3rd day - I'm already getting to like this).

    Lets run a blandish set of results to get our group standings.

    J
     
  3. JLSA

    JLSA Member

    Nov 11, 2003
    Group results went like this (1st - 2nd) Not giving out GD but it's used.
    England (6) United States (6)
    Spain (7) Sweden (7)
    Belgium (9) Mexico (6)
    Colombia (6) Uzbekistan (4)
    Uruguay (7) Senegal (6)
    Argentina (9) Italy (6)
    Germany (7) Peru (5)
    Republic of Ireland (7) Chile (7)
    Iran (7) France (5)
    Panama (9) Switzerland (6)
    Slovakia (7) Costa Rica (5)
    Netherlands (7) Brazil (4)

    As everyone is really interested in one obvious result - Burkina Faso defeated Uzbekistan - but Uzbekistan advanced.

    Looks like my computer is a Concacaf fan.

    Anyway - Round of 24:
    Sweden on penalties over England
    Mexico d Spain
    United States d Belgium
    Colombia d Senegal
    Italy d Uruguay
    Argentina d Uzbekistan
    Germany d Chile
    France d Republic of Ireland
    Peru on penalties over Iran
    Costa Rica d Panama
    Slovakia d Brazil
    Netherlands d Switzerland

    (i'll assume that no matches were settled by extra time)
    This gives (points, but GD decided all differences)
    Section W: Mexico (9) - United States (9) Sweden (8)
    Section X: Argentina (12) - Colombia (9) Italy (9)
    Section Y: Germany (10) - France (8) Peru (6)
    Section Z: Slovakia (10) - Netherlands (10) Costa Rica (8)

    So qualification:
    Italy d United States
    Colombia d Sweden
    France d Costa Rica
    Peru on penalties over Netherlands

    Quarter Finals:
    France d Mexico
    Argentina d Peru
    Germany d Italy
    Colombia d Slovakia

    Semi Finals:
    France d Colombia
    Argentina d Germany

    3rd:
    Colombia d Germany

    Final:
    France d Argentina

    J
     
  4. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    All the teams are ranked after the World Cup. Your format could produce this result. Team X and Team Y have the same amount of points, goals scored, and goals allowed in the Group Stage. In the Round of 24, Team X wins by 3 and Team Y wins by 1. The tiebreaker sends Team X to the Quarterfinals. Team Y wins their Qualification Round game by 1. Both of them lose their Quarterfinal by the same score. The teams will be tied on points, and goal differential would rank Team X better. However, Team Y had more points per game and had the same outcome as Team X in every round both of them played in and a win when Team X didn't play. With your format, two teams could be eliminated in the same round with an unequal amount of games. This happened a long time ago in a 13 team World Cup, but hasn't happened recently.
     
  5. HomietheClown

    HomietheClown Member+

    Dusselheim FC 1971
    Sep 4, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    At first I was skeptical about the lunacy.
    But then I noticed that Colombia got to the semis in your crazy simulation.

    So I am all for this change based on that.
     
  6. NaBUru38

    NaBUru38 Member+

    Mar 8, 2016
    Las Canteras, Uruguay
    Club:
    Club Nacional de Football
    12 groups of 4 teams is a better format than 16 groups of 3:
    But I'd do a 24-team playoffs.

    The 8 best group winners advance to round of 16.
    The other 4 groups winners and the 12 runner-ups advance to the preliminary round.
     
    jagum repped this.

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