News: 40 Man Provisional Roster For The 2019 CONCACAF Gold Cup

Pope / McBride / Reyna were 72/73s. That was impressive, though they didn't all emerge at the same time as stars - Claudio showed up a few years earlier despite being the same age.

 

My question is, who is better at playing the RB role in GGG's setup - Lima or Adams? I much prefer Adams in the center of the park. I thought Lima had the position down when he played, albeit lower competition.

 

I've always been a Lichaj supporter so I UPVOTE this.

 

I probably just failed to remember the debate properly, I was digging around for guys that came up more or less generationally linked that were spectacular for the US and/or also had quality club careers.

Pope: DC United, USMNT Stalwart in 3 World Cups (in my view a borderline world class centerback, certainly capable of starting in a top league in the world)

McBride: CBus/Everton/USMNT 1998-2006, Maybe not a world class forward, but certainly more than capable of earning a starting gig as he did in the EPL or in any other top league. Consistent 10-15+ goal scorer no matter wherever he was in club terms.

Reyna: Starred for Rangers, First XI 2002 WC, member of '94, '98, '02 and '06 WC teams (believe only guy on 4). At the time he earned my favorite moniker ever from someone on here (Sponge Bob Square Pass), what I would give for a Reyna the past six or seven years though. Like McBride, some understood that while not world beating superstars, they were special, rare talents for the US, others like me, only appreciated them as much as they should've during the dark years (2014-Present).

The '02 team may not have gotten the most out of their club careers in the case of three guys:

Donovan: Clearly didn't reach the heights he could've w/a more Pulisic like drive.

O'brien: Injuries destroyed what might have been.

Mathis: Injuries and mentality destroyed what might have been.

Reyna and McBride and Pope (already described).

Like many I felt O'Brien was a world class talent and would've shown it, instead we got the '02 World Cup (and maybe the '00 Olympics, can't remember). I also feel pre-ACL Mathis was a world class striker/midfielder, he was just amazing if you look back at his game in 2000 and especially 2001. Kind of wild to watch his performances in friendlies in the first half of '02 after returning from the ACL injuries and he was still just killing people left and right despite not being fully fit, it seems like the fitness issues/bad nutrition/lack of commitment, (he's kind of a throwback to '80's and earlier athletes who could be caught in locker rooms drinking beers and/or smoking, things you'd never see these days) had their impact way heavily over time, not initially showing itself super dramatically initially but then within a few years the lack of attention to detail tore down what he could have been (along w/the injury). He was for me, what I've heard Steve Snow described as, a guy who just got better and better and better, and then was gone the second he got within inches of stardom. He might be the biggest might've been question of all time for the USMNT. That's my view anyway.

But anyway, that '02 group I view as every bit as special, they have the youth tournament success (semifinal runs in 1999 and 2000), and they have the '02 WC success. Right now those kids have outstanding club careers, but I think part of the reason that success exists is due to:

#1 The improved development system we have compared to what those earlier players came up in (Pope was a freaking college player, same with Reyna, same i think with McBride and Mathis)

#2 Those players paved the way to European Clubs actually choosing to scout a Pulisic when he was 15 in the USA. Were any Euro scouts watching college soccer in the US in the 1990's? Not that I'm aware of. I suppose there might have been a couple area scouts. However guys like Adams, McKennie, Pulisic etc would've been in a far different situation in 1996 or 1999 or whatever compared to the environment that brought Pulisic, and later McKennie and Adams to Europe. They arrived via a bridge that was built by the successed of players in Europe like McBride, Dempsey, Donovan to a degree, and the WC play of these guys and Pope etc. They layed the foundation, and guys like McKennie, Adams, and Pulisic are reaping the rewards of a Europe that is more willing to buy into the value of American soccer players than they were two decades ago. It's a totally different world today and those '02 guys played a huge role in creating it.

 

Before full @GoldCup prep begins, this combined #USMNT / U-23 MNT squad will assemble May 27 in Annapolis for a week of training.

The senior team kicks off Gold Cup camp seven days later, with the final tournament roster to be announced on June 6.

— U.S. Soccer Men's National Team (@USMNT) May 22, 2019

 

No combination of three out of that mix matches the club play of Adams, McK, and Puli, regardless of age.

 

I don't think anyone is dissing any of the players you mentioned. Just saying this combo of 3 is better

 

This is all great but it is very subjective. Would anyone in Germany that follows world soccer have heard of any of the guys? Possibly Dempsey. Certainly, nobody in England or Italy is aware of a guy like Pope that never left MLS.

Pulisic was sold for $74 million. Everyone who follows world football has heard of him.

McKennie scored a big goal in the Champions League and has started for one of the biggest clubs in the world for two years. Adams is starting for the #3 team in Germany and will be playing in the UCL next year, knock on wood. But I don't know if the casual fan in England has any idea who McKennie is (yet) or Adams. McKennie being linked with Liverpool; maybe they have heard his name.

Beasley, Jones, and maybe Johnson are the only players near them. They played together in 2014, but Beasley was past peak and probably so was Jones.

The only way to take the subjectivity out of it is to look at their club accomplishments. Taken that way, McKennie, Adams, and Pulisic are certainly the best three ever already. Or at least the idea that is a laughable statement is grossly exaggerated.

 

I'm confused by this. Are the players in the Summer Training Camp not going to be in the Gold Cup? Isn't Holmes too old for the U23s? Has anyone figured this out?

 

I don't think we know what McBride's ceiling was. He got to the PL late and played on a mediocre Fulham team. Ya gotta wonder what he'd have done with better service. And, Coleman used him all over the field. Fulham's attack was basically, kick the ball up to McBride at midfield for him to knock it down or flick it on to a teammate. Then play it in the air to him at the top of the box for him to knock it down again.

I'd love to see the "aerial battles won" stat for McB.

And, imo, the thing we're badly missing now is an aerial ball winning forward in Concacaf matches. I'm a broken record on this, but when we play CCAF teams, their MO is foul us as we approach the attacking zone. Every time. We stupidly wait for them to reset everyone behind the ball, then recirculate. If we had a McBride up top, we could make them pay.

 

Given the crappy fields and cynical play of our CONCACAF opponents, it’s folly to play build-from-the-back possession at away games. We have elite aerial players in brooks and how-tall-is-he-for-real McKennie so we should be planning on being very dangerous when getting corners and fouls in their zone.

The silly obsession with style of play is a terrible idea for the USMNT.

 

The U23s leave before the full camp begins on June 1. For example, Luca De La Torre will be there from May 27-June 1 in the combined camp, and then he leaves. While Duane Holmes also gets there on the 27th, but he stays with the full camp that starts on the 1st when the rest of the provisional roster arrives.

 

Totally agree about Wes.

With Brooks, I've thought about that. That's great for corners. But, when we inevitably get fouled in zone's 10-12, do we wait for a fullback to make the long trek from the back to the top of the opponents box? Personally, I would. If the backs were, say, Miazga and Brooks, I'd have them alternate making the journey up for offensive zone free kicks, and have someone cover back for them. But, that would be a long wait while they make the jog. My guess is that we might get carded for time wasting. On the flipside, when the opponent kicks the ball away after the foul, as they *always* do. That would play into our hands.

Side note regarding corners, with CCaf reffing, I bet we get called for offensive fouls on corners about 40% of the time. We surely get called for more offensive fouls way more often than we score. When we're in CCaf, especially on the road, I'd play them short. Have a late runner from the top of the box, so that while the D is pushing out while the cross is coming in, the runner (who was way onside) is getting clear behind the D.

Also, will CCaf have VAR in WCQ's?

 

I don't think it means that at all. It's just a precamp since these guys are available.

He'll then call in the 5 EU guys not on this list, plus most (probably not all) the MLS guys from the 40-Man on 6/1 prior to the 6/5 friendly. He'll send the non-40 man guys to the U-23 and keep the 11 guys from the 40-man around. After the 6/5 friendly he likely cuts down to 23 for the final friendly and GC.

Yes, Holmes is 24, that's a mistake.

 

Seems like a great way to run it.

 

Can't believe I forgot the bulk of his work was with Fulham. Whoops.

 

So no Palmer-Brown for the U-23s either?

 

Trying to figure out if you mean in terms of the teams they play for (Champions League sides in regards to Adams, and Puli).

McBride's play at Fulham when healthy and playing a full season (35 goals in all competitions combined across those three years ('04-'05 through '06-'07)) was pretty damn impressive. Not sure you're giving enough credit to him.

Pope never played in an elite league, so he can't compare in terms of club career, but I don't think there are many people who ever saw him as anything less than a borderline world class CB at his peak. At his peak he was every bit the equal at his position to Adams and McKennie and honestly, flat out better, for now (I say this while fully endorsing the idea that if Adams continues on this trend line, he'll be the better of the two, I don't think McKennie is nearly that close, yet). Puli is another story entirely. Though it's only been around three full seasons, his club career has been the most impressive in US History w/Dempsey behind him.

Donovan never tested himself enough so he can't really enter the argument.

Reyna at Rangers was a pretty big deal, definitely superior to McKennie for now. Remember in his prime he made an All World Cup First XI that freaking Brazil steamrolled through. That says something.

Guys like O'Brien, and Mathis don't enter the debate due to injuries and Mathis' other issues etc.

 

I'm bummed Julian is not on the 40-man roster, or being called in for the training camp. He had a very good season in 2nd Bundesliga (27 starts and 4 goals), and is still probably better than Duane Holmes (though I haven't done a direct side-by-side comparison). Wonder if Green could be converted to a winger or a right back at some point.

Also bummed about the following snubs:

-Novakovic/Ebobisse - solid strikers for the future.
-Kenny Saief - one of our best left-footed players? Might be carrying slight injury.
-Chandler/Fabian Johnson - veterans with know-how.
-Danny Williams - Needs to get club playing time first.

Other comments:
-Wow, Bobby Wood has fallen far very fast. Used to be leading striker of his generation, now can't even make 40-man gold cup roster. His goal against Germany in a friendly a few years ago was thrilling, but not much since then.

Dual National update:
-Still no Theoson Jordan-Siebatchieu, or Jeremy Toljan. Guess they're still holding out for France and Germany respectively. Jordan hasn't played since Feb. 10, so may be injured. Otherwise both should have made the 40-man roster in a heartbeat.

 

I'm choosing to hold back judgment for now ... but I will say, based on the draw, it would be a disappointment if the US MNT doesn't reach the final. We won't be facing Mexico or Costa Rica (until the final), and on this side of the bracket, Jamaica and Honduras are in the other group. The USA's biggest in-group threat is Panama. The US should finish top of the group, and sail through the knockout rounds into the final.

Beat up all the weak teams we're expected to beat and then inevitably lose against our first quality opponent.

That's right, boys, we're pulling an England.

 

Totally OT.

On the "Best combo of 3" topic, the glaring omission (as always) is Cherundolo. Best club career of any American by miles.

 

Honestly it depends what you mean. If you mean are their club careers so far of a higher trajectory? Yes. If you mean, has their peak, so far, been better? I'd say no. If you're arguing long term? I'd say, if those guys can stay healthy, I'd probably co-sign (I'm not sure what to think of McKennie since he's been uneven 2018-2019, Adams has been a revelation, and Puli is the Best American Player in terms of his peak level play, to this point).

It depends upon the argument. Any 3 best guys you put together for the most part of the '02 squad have been more impressive to me because of the length of accomplishments (McBride, Beasley, Donovan, Reyna, Pope etc), but none of them had club situations as good, but on the other side, are any of those guys other than Puli coming close to prime level Pope? And to some extent prime level Donovan in a USMNT uniform? Honestly none of our current three have had the opportunity to do what Donovan did in '02, '09 and '10, but Donovan also did that, and it's an open question if any of them ever accomplish anything close to that. Then add in that Puli's U17 experience was a three and out, and Donovan's was a Semifinal run. Donovan also made a semifinal run at a medal the next year in the U-23/Olympic Tournament, Puli's team may not qualify if we run into the same problems getting players released for qualifying, let alone having a similar success.

Like all of this depends upon the angle you're looking at it from. No club career of the '02's looks as impressive as starting regularly for a knockout round Dortmund side, a Champions League Bound Leipzig, or Schalke other than possibly Reyna at Rangers, but I'd need to dig into that, and that still wouldn't be as impressive as Puli's play for Dortmund. Otoh, Donovan's got a war chest of accomplishments in the USMNT uniform that will be monumentally difficult for Puli to match, he's already failed to do so in the U17 tournament (I say that acknowleding that Puli's US side landed in the Group of Death in 2015), in terms of club career, Donovan annihilated the competition in MLS, but his homesickness/temperament meant that his Euro Club career was a disappointment beyond some nice little performances for Everton that pale in comparison to what the current big 3 have done in Europe. Otoh, Donovan WAS the MLS. He collected a gigantic Carnival Cruise Line scale collection of awards and trophies in that league, and heck, had that miracle comeback w/San Jose before he even switched to LA.

It's complicated and I get the point, but I also think Pope and Donovan's club careers are kinda misunderstood because of 1.) their choices and 2.) Donovan's inability to handle playing in Europe full time. They played in MLS, and in MLS during it's crummiest period (Pope) and near crummiest (Donovan). Otoh, we also know how good Pope was, and before Puli, he was the most consistently great American player probably ever, w/Donovan and Dempsey belonging in a different sense in that argument. How do you measure things since they never left an impact on the European game? Not sure.

 

I'm a huge McBride fan, as I've posted elsewhere in this thread. Still, don't think he was as good as these 3 are now.

Reyna's WC BXI is super impressive. But, I've always thought he was the "token" American. Given our performance against Germany, someone needed to be picked. He was the most recognizable name. Maybe he had the weakest competition at his position? Personally, if an American were to be picked, I'd have picked Sanneh.

As far as best club career, what about Cherundolo?

 

As far as best single club season, Beaz at PSV has to be the top, right?

 

Good move by Earnie Stewart!

This is essentially a repeat of the pre Copa camp that JK did in 2016 which ended with a friendly v Puerto Rico. This camp will give the fringe Euro players a look-see before a major tournament.

That 2016 camp had fringe Euro/LigaMX players like Morales, Williams, Ream, Hyndman, Green, Fafa, Lichaj, Orozco, Miazga, Arriola, and Kitchen.

Kitchen and Orozco played their way onto the Copa100 roster. Lets see if any fringe players makes the GC2019 final 23.