2019 WWC Referee Discussion [Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by lil_one, Dec 3, 2018.

  1. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    When I made a reference to the "old men" of the IFAB, I received a bit of a lecture (tee-hee!)
    While the desire of referees to make enforcement consistent and fair is understandable, the rules are now being written, not for the players nor for the fans nor for the game, but to put referees beyond reproach. And it's ruining the game.
     
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  2. sulfur

    sulfur Member

    Oct 22, 2007
    Ontario, Canada
    Found the goal line view... this is as good as I could get it in terms of the kick...

    This is crazy closer than the one NOT called the other day.

    GK encroach NGAvFRA 2.png
     
  3. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I’d say they are being written based on two false premises that are befalling all sports right now:

    1) that 100% accuracy in officiating decisions is desirable for fans

    2) technology inherently can help you get there

    Nothing else is really being considered as a major factor. I mean, IFAB and FIFA are considering how long delays might be and are considering (and have implemented) limitations on what can be reviewed. But those aren’t the driving factors.

    Get almost everything right because we have the technology to do so is the mantra that is accepted without much thought.

    No one in power seems to make the case that people love sports even if everything isn’t 100% accurate and/or that technology isn’t the great panacea they think it is for subjective decisions.

    Fans don’t want gross injustices deciding games. I get that. And we can make sure that doesn’t happen. But I don’t think there are many people who actually want too much more out of video review. Alas, that’s not the way governing bodies think right now.
     
  4. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Excellent. At least one person here will understand when I say some teams are coached to "finish their checks." Which is great except when it's in the wrong sport.
     
  5. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agreed. But it’s more accurate than letting the AR get one crack at it in real-time. That’s all I’m saying here.
     
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  6. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So what frame speed is being used for VAR? I thought I read somewhere around here that it's 28 frames per second. A lousy 28 frames per second, if you will.
    (On a tangent, the Zapruder film of the Kennedy assassination is 18.3 frames per second. Just because all of you might as well know.)
     
  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #657 MassachusettsRef, Jun 17, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
    By the way, note how we really haven’t had a single discussion about how any of these referees are handling matches. There was a bit about Borjas having too many fouls in her first match but that was about it. We’ve gone from past WCs before Russia where you could analyze an official and how they managed a match, taking into particular account KMIs.

    Now it’s just all about how VAR plays a role in decision-making. The actual officiating is an afterthought and this is a referee forum.
     
  8. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just in case some of you are under the impression we're only arguing about sports, the real issue is civilization and the assault on civilization by technophiliacs.

    I'm only half-jesting. (tee-hee!)
     
  9. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think I’m less than half-joking. I’ve been beating this drum for awhile.
     
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  10. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It hardly matters what their background and past accomplishments are. They're part of a club now. They're insiders now. Apparatchiks. Cogs in the machinery. For those of you with dubious musical tastes - "another brick in the wall"

    Seriously, isn't this where sociology began as a social science? With guys like Emile Durkheim and Max Weber talking about how individuals function differently within an organization, an institution, a bureaucracy?
     
  11. scotto

    scotto Member

    Feb 13, 2001
    Bonny Doon, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I am not a referee so would like to tap into the expertise on this forum. In the France-Nigeria VAR penally decision, is there no consideration of the fact that multiple French players encroached? That is a persistent problem at almost all levels. Setting aside the question of whether or not this really was a legitimate violation by the keeper, I have multiple questions:

    1. Can an offsetting violation from the penalty-kicking team (i.e., encroachment) prevent a retake on a miss even if the keeper is off the line?

    2. Is encroachment part of what is reviewable under VAR?

    3. Is there any movement to crack down on encroachment during penally kicks, or is it only considered to matter if the penalty is saved or hits the post and an encroaching player puts in the rebound?

    4. Finally, there doesn't seem to be any difference in the case of a saved penalty versus a missed penalty with regards to a foul call for the keeper coming off the line early. Is that correct?

    TIA,
    Scott
     
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  12. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I didn't get to see live the 2nd half of Spain/China but I was thinking of this forum towards the end of the first half. I'm glad that no one, as far as I've heard, got their toes broken like Dzsenifer Marozsan did in Germany's game against China, but I was thinking the 2nd half could get really nasty when no one got a yellow card in the first half and there was only one or two verbal admonitions from the referee, Edina Alves Batista (Brazil). China's Shanshan Wang, whose tackle broke Marozsan's toe in the Germany game, committed another bad tackle which, I thought, easily could've been her 2nd yellow card of the tournament. Not a player I want to see get carte blanche when she deserves carton jaune. (I apologize if that's not the idiomatic rendition in French for yellow card)
     
  13. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    1. No

    2. I think so, but probably only if a goal scores from a rebound. Don’t know for sure.

    3. Players appear to me to be encroaching less, but still encroaching. Shrug.

    4. Under the Laws, there is no difference. I think referees have always been more lenient on misses than saves. The US-Chile game suggested that remained, but the game today suggests otherwise. We can only speculate on what is instructed, neutral my speculation is that today’s is what thy want and there were instructions after the one in the US game wasn’t called. But that is only speculation.
     
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  14. USSF REF

    USSF REF Member

    Red Bull NY
    United States
    Nov 6, 2005
    Rochester, NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It would be possible for VAR to implement high frame rate cameras if they wanted to do so. The ultra slow motion shots that we see of a golf swing in UHD can only come from cameras with a frame rate of 300 fps or even higher and then played back at a slower frame rate (like 25 or 30fps). This would allow the referee/VAR to pinpoint the moment of contact exactly.

    Of course, that ignores the fact that this degree of resolution and accuracy is impossible to detect to the human eye and do we really want to be this precise?

    No. Or at least we shouldn't.

    I think MassRef is on the right track in pointing out the pitfalls of going deeper down that rabbit hole.

    It was never realistic to get rid of refereeing error in sports through video or other means. Besides, I think to a degree, people enjoy the controversy and argument that naturally surrounds the business of officiating.

    Some people who say they will tune out because the officiating is so bad, but I will believe it when I see it.
     
  15. Scrabbleship

    Scrabbleship Member

    May 24, 2012
    That's a rough call. If I were any other keeper in this tournament, I'd be standing inside the goal as much as possible in hoping that by moving forward I'd still be on the line to avoid getting called for this because I doubt changing my technique I've been using my whole life can be changed overnight.
     
  16. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And that, too, standing inside the goal, is illegal according to the rules, from what I saw posted somewhere earlier today.
     
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  17. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    You put your toes on the back of the line...
     
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  18. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Member+

    Feb 11, 2002
    Jupiter, Fl.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm waiting for one and 1/2 hours per KFTM plus about 23 shooters needed...
     
  19. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Member+

    Feb 11, 2002
    Jupiter, Fl.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States


    Hopefully, with practice she gets as good at explaining stuff during the broadcast, as she does when she has more time to illustrate and explain on Twitter!
     
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  20. scotto

    scotto Member

    Feb 13, 2001
    Bonny Doon, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is very much on point. Thank you for posting it.
     
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  21. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    VAR has essentially ruined this forum as well. We really don't talk about any on field officiating decisions or match management anymore. Even the MLS forum is the same way.

    All we ask is "Why wasn't this reviewed or why was that reviewed, but not this?"

    We don't talk anymore about who does a good job and who doesn't.
     
  22. balu

    balu Member

    Oct 18, 2013
    Japan – England
    Referee: Claudia Umpierrez (URU)
    Assistant Referee 1: Luciana Mascarana (URU)
    Assistant Referee 2: Monica Amboya (ECU)
    Fourth Official: Maria Carvajal (CHI)
    Reserve AR: Queency Victoire (MRI)
    VAR: Carlos Del Cerro Grande (ESP)
    AVAR 1: Jose Sanchez Martinez (ESP)
    AVAR 2: Leslie Vazquez (CHI)

    Scotland – Argentina
    Referee: Ri Hyang Ok (PRK)
    Assistant Referee 1: Hong Kum Nyo (PRK)
    Assistant Referee 2: Kim Kyoung Min (KOR)
    Fourth Official: Lidya Tafesse Abebe (ETH)
    Reserve AR: Makoto Bozono (JPN)
    VAR: Bastian Dankert (GER)
    AVAR 1: Drew Fischer (CAN)
    AVAR 2: Katrin Rafalski (GER)
     
  23. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Maybe the solution is simply to remove encroachment decisions from the scope of VAR.
     
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  24. Lechus7

    Lechus7 Member+

    Aug 31, 2011
    Wroclaw
    Two penalties for Norway. Verdict?



    Imo:

    1st pen: Cho has hands around the waist of her rival allright (but boy Thorisdottir throws herself to the ground adding some theatrics)

    2nd pen: Hansen jumps on Kang's foot (hurts herself in the process) while Korean is trying to play the ball



     
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  25. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Those are penalties.

    What is there even to question?

    In fact, the second one knocked the Norwegian player out of the match injured—shocked that wasn’t at least yellow. “Trying to play the ball”—sure, I’m confident she want deliberately trying to commit a penalty. But she needs to improve her skills then, because that’s an atrociously bad challenge.

    And we want to excuse a bear hug on the target player because the target player sees fit to demonstrate she’s being bear hugged when we all know referees tend to ignore or miss these sort of things? No thanks. I’d rather it gets called.
     
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