2019 WWC Referee Discussion [Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by lil_one, Dec 3, 2018.

  1. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    I go back to IFAB mist all be forwards .. .

    And, no, the fact that forwards can also be cautioned is no balance at all. The things forwards can be cautioned for are all calculated acts while the GK gets cautioned—sanctioned for unsporting behavior—for having bad timing. That made a tiny bit of sense when instituted as only blatant offenses were called. But now it absolutely absurd. (And I think this is absolutely something no one really focused on when deciding to have draconian enforcement. Any GK can tell you it is really hard to nail that timing perfectly.)

    It’ll really be fun when field players have to play GK in KFTM because the GK gets called twice. . .
     
  2. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I wonder if we're gonna see pro keepers develop a save technique where they extend their trail foot backwards as they dive forward. You only need part of your foot over the goal line when the ball is kicked after all.
     
  3. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, I’d say the big change is it’s a VAR decision now. No AR would call what we saw today—regardless of how rigid instructions might be—because they’d have doubt about her leaving 2cm early.

    Subjecting it to VAR review allows FIFA to theoretically eliminate all doubt.
     
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  4. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think that was the trade off. It changed from two feet on the line to part of one foot on/over the line. But now it's actually gonna get enforced.
     
  5. mathguy ref

    mathguy ref Member

    Nov 15, 2016
    TX
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    And not just enforced, but it’s draconian enforcement. If we (and I mean we as in not FIFA referees but the rank and file referees) are expected to hold every GK to the strict letter of Law 14 this will get very ugly very fast.
     
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  6. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    Watched it again, and the taker definitely made a stutter move right before planting.She dragged her left foot.
     
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  7. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We can't enforce this to the draconian levels because we don't have VAR. There's no way for the AR to be confident enough to make this call when it's so close without VAR. That's why it appears the AR has simply stopped attempting to call it in the WWC.
     
  8. SCV-Ref

    SCV-Ref Member

    Spurs
    Australia
    Feb 22, 2018
    I didn't realize the plane counts. I read it as one foot being "on the line". Is there any written guidance on this that I can show others?
     
  9. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The latest laws - "When the ball is kicked, the defending goalkeeper must have at least part of one foot touching, or in line with, the goal line."

    That's why I think there could be something to extending your back leg backwards as you push forward with your leading leg to keep your foot over the goal line. It'd be a new technique, but I imagine with a video camera and a few hours with a GK coach they could get it down.
     
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  10. SCV-Ref

    SCV-Ref Member

    Spurs
    Australia
    Feb 22, 2018
    Don't worry...it is written in the LOTG like that. I am dummy...hear me roar.
    It says "touching or in line with the goal line".
    Sorry....as you were...nothing to see here.
     
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  11. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Maybe not a stutter step but I specifically remember a hitch in Renard's kicking motion. Could be the reason why she missed it the first time around.
     
  12. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't know if you guys have already gone over how lovely it's going to be when a goalkeeper is sent off with a 2nd mandatory yellow card when a match goes to PKs after Added Extra Time.

    Have I missed something? Have we beaten that one to death yet? Because with stutter steps allowed and hesitations in the kicking motion, it's going to happen sooner or later in the World Cup, right?
     
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  13. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Yup. Similar to what happened when they permitted GKs to move sideways--for a period of time the GK was actually more restricted under the new rule because it was more closely enforced . . . and then it relaxed over time. But if this is going to be a VR issue, then maybe it's not going to relax this time. (But hopefully next year they realize the unfairness of the caution and remove it.)
     
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  14. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    upload_2019-6-17_18-5-48.png

    I love this question by the biggest advocate of VAR in the US Soccer media.

    The reason why VAR was deemed such a "success" in the men's World Cup was because they didn't bother to use it! As covered on here countless times, FIFA and the VARs didn't follow their own protocols and instructions prior to the tournament. They abandoned the concept of SFP, violent conduct and fouls in the APP.

    Maybe this tournament can keep getting worse and there might be some push back to finally abandon this farcical system and get rid of it.

    Hopefully FIFA and others won't say that "VAR has had nothing but positive results."
     
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  15. Beau Dure

    Beau Dure Member+

    May 31, 2000
    Vienna, VA
    VAR is going to remain in the game.

    But they have some bugs to work out, and one suggestion I'd have is pretty simple: You can't use it to decide whether to retake a penalty.

    I'm not the least bit convinced someone watching a screen and trying to determine when a ball is kicked without hearing the thump of the ball has a better perspective than an AR standing 22 yards from the goalkeeper and looking straight down the line.
     
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  16. GlennAA11

    GlennAA11 Member+

    Jun 12, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    When you can slow it down frame by frame you can make the call that was impossible to definitively make in the past in real time...in most cases.

    I always figured IFAB was full of people who never really played the game. Do we even know who is part of it, or is it a star chamber?
     
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  17. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    Beau, ‘ol buddy....they have about 5 different of more angles to watch for it. This isn’t a one camera set up.

    And that cart has left the horse (to mix metaphors). There is not a ‘keeper currently working in the world right now who isn’t early on EVERY PK. the concept of trifling went out the window with this particular call.
     
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  18. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    http://theifab.com/structure

    Click the "Bodies of the IFAB" drop menu.

    There's the actual General Assembly and Board of Directors which are more the politicians of the group. But there's two committees made up of former players/coaches and top level referees who get quite a bit of say in what proposals make it to a final vote. The whole idea that the laws are made up of people who've never played or refereed at a high level is patently wrong.
     
  19. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You think an AR who has the flash-lag (or sound lag) in the heat of the moment has a better chance of calling this accurately? In a stadium with tens of thousands of fans?

    No. Look, if you want accuracy, this is the way to do it. The question is whether anyone wants accuracy and rigid enforcement. I’ve yet to encounter the person who does.

    And VAR is here to stay, but it has far more than a few bugs. Ice hockey, American football and basketball have had very high profile and very recent major issues with replay or the lack thereof in particular instances. People are starting to see that replay doesn’t take attention off officials, as advertised, but it puts even more scrutiny on them. Something has to give and I think the only eventual “solution” is to have the referee consult replay when they feel they need to so, without many parameters. And I’m talking about for all sports. The market for sports consumption would eventually help dictate how frequent fans want replay consultations to be. Anything short of that, with technical parameters, leads to “oh, that can be reviewed but THIS can’t?!” Look at the NHL with the hand pass in the playoffs while minuscule offside decisions annul goals. Just wait for next year in the NFL when PI calls are reviewable but defensive holding isn’t. Now we have our sport where penalties are retaken for this but, for example, a wrongly awarded corner or a phantom foul 19 yards out can lead to goals.

    But that’s not happening anytime soon. We are stuck here for awhile. And it’s going to get worse before it gets better.
     
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  20. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Well, if the AR is at the intersection listening, he is just over 25 yards away, or 75 feet. Sound travels about 1130 feet per second. So it takes about a 15th of second for the AR to hear the contact--way not precise enough to stop keepers from cheating!
     
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  21. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Well, @code1390 posted a list of some who do . . . but I'm inclined to think that might be the complete list of those who think this is a good idea . . .
     
  22. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    This is a great take.

    I watch as much hockey as I do soccer. The playoffs saw several referee crews sent home for egregious errors that would have been saved by the proper Mass Ref policy of having the referees ask for a review on whatever they need. Sports have way too many variables. Especially soccer. This PK redo was full of trifling things. Encroachment, ‘keeper movement, cards. 8 minutes added.
     
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  23. GlennAA11

    GlennAA11 Member+

    Jun 12, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    Thanks for that. I never said that they didn't referee at a high level. The only name I recognize in the general assembly list is Hislop. I'd have to research the rest to know what their background is.
     
  24. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    All the names are clickable for a bio.
     
  25. SCV-Ref

    SCV-Ref Member

    Spurs
    Australia
    Feb 22, 2018
    ahh..someone else doing some math.
    At the risk of beating a horse that has left the cart...
    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/9eed/d371c102ed09b2d2e92c40cd9357decf6df1.pdf
    In 1/25th of a second (1 television frame in Europe) a kickers instep can travel 1.1 meters. To imagine that the EVS or replay operator can stop on a "frame" where the foot meets the ball, every time, is a fantasy. Only GLT has higher frame rate cameras.
     
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