2019 Week 6 MLS Referee Discussion

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by ManiacalClown, Apr 5, 2019.

  1. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Games for week 6 start TONIGHT!

    04/05/19

    Vancouver Whitecaps vs LA Galaxy
    BC Place (10:00PM ET)
    REF: Baldomero Toledo
    AR1: Chris Wattam
    AR2: Apolinar Mariscal
    4TH: Alex Chilowicz
    VAR: Silviu Petrescu
    AVAR: Joshua Patlak

    04/06/19

    New York City FC vs Montreal Impact
    Yankee Stadium (1:00PM ET)
    REF: Ted Unkel
    AR1: Adam Wienckowski
    AR2: Cory Richardson
    4TH: Lorant Varga
    VAR: Jorge Gonzalez
    AVAR: Ian McKay

    D.C. United vs Los Angeles FC
    Audi Field (3:00PM ET)
    REF: Robert Sibiga
    AR1: Kyle Atkins
    AR2: Oscar Mitchell-Carvalho
    4TH: Marcos DeOliveira
    VAR: Geoff Gamble
    AVAR: Eric Weisbrod

    Toronto FC vs Chicago Fire
    BMO Field (3:00PM ET)
    REF: Armando Villarreal
    AR1: Jeffrey Greeson
    AR2: Jeremy Kieso
    4TH: Ramy Touchan
    VAR: Sorin Stoica
    AVAR: Robert Schaap

    New York Red Bulls vs Minnesota United
    Red Bull Arena (7:00PM ET)
    REF: Joe Dickerson
    AR1: Corey Parker
    AR2: Gianni Facchini
    4TH: Christopher Penso
    VAR: Luis Guardia
    AVAR: Gjovalin Bori

    Columbus Crew vs New England Revolution
    MAPFRE Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Rubiel Vazquez
    AR1: Ian Anderson
    AR2: Andrew Bigelow
    4TH: Ismir Pekmic
    VAR: Chico Grajeda
    AVAR: Kevin Klinger

    Orlando City vs Colorado Rapids
    Orlando City Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Jair Marrufo
    AR1: Corey Rockwell
    AR2: Logan Brown
    4TH: Elvis Osmanovic
    VAR: Daniel Radford
    AVAR: Kyle Longville

    Philadelphia Union vs FC Dallas
    Talen Energy Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Tim Ford
    AR1: Frank Anderson
    AR2: Nick Uranga
    4TH: Dave Gantar
    VAR: Kevin Stott
    AVAR: Peter Manikowski

    San Jose Earthquakes vs Portland Timbers
    Avaya Stadium (8:00PM ET)
    REF: Drew Fischer
    AR1: Brian Poeschel
    AR2: Micheal Barwegen
    4TH: Lukasz Szpala
    VAR: Edvin Jurisevic
    AVAR: Chris Elliott

    Seattle Sounders vs Real Salt Lake
    CenturyLink Field (10:00PM ET)
    REF: Nima Saghafi
    AR1: Michael Kampmeinert
    AR2: Matthew Nelson
    4TH: Alex Chilowicz
    VAR: Kevin Terry Jr
    AVAR: Joshua Patlak

    04/07/19

    FC Cincinnati vs Sporting Kansas City
    Nippert Stadium (3:00PM ET)
    REF: Ismail Elfath
    AR1: Jason White
    AR2: Adam Garner
    4TH: Ismir Pekmic
    VAR: Jon Freemon
    AVAR: Peter Balciunas
     
  2. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Notes:
    This is the first 4th official assignment for both Lorant Varga and Lukasz Szpala and the first AVAR assignment for Ian McKay.

    Elfath gets two of the first three FC Cincinnati home games ever played for some weird reason.

    Whistle #3 for Tim Ford.


    Both Fotis Bazakos and Alan Kelly have USL Championship assignments this week so I would assume that both have passed fitness at this point.
     
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  3. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well that was one of the easiest VAR interventions to give Rooney a red card.
     
  4. TxSooner

    TxSooner Member

    Aug 12, 2011
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    I’m not holding out any hope that the league will hand down anything additional for that horrific challenge by Rooney. They need the ticket sales.
     
  5. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Referee change for RBNY v MIN. Ramy TOUCHAN is in charge.
     
  6. stangspritzring

    stangspritzring Member+

    Apr 3, 2006
    NorMD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Rooney did deserve the card, but, yet again, Sibiga and crew ignore the pattern of Bradley teams to double- or triple-team players and rotate fouls without being called. LAFC's number 7 had at least 7 fouls called against him without so much as a talking to....So, of course United starts to boil over. It's been the play of every Bradley team for years. And suggesting game management to reduce this kind of performance is verboten. "The players are professionals, they have to learn to let it go" is often bandied about...but the refs are supposed to be pros, too.
     
  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Huh?

    It was 3-0 after about a half hour. Rooney got sent off in the 52’. Allegedly unsanctioned PI is your takeaway from that match? And something that at least indirectly relates to Rooney’s red card? Interesting conclusion.
     
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  8. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think the question on the Rooney red is one of process and maybe subconcious defensive bias sneaking into officials' minds now that they have the crutch of VAR.

    Rooney's foul is at 49:19. Initially Sibiga shows no card. He finally shows yellow at 50:02. VAR check initiated at 50:38. Red shown at about 51:40.

    Give Sibiga the benefit of the doubt and say he just didn't see the severity of his challenge from his angle and distance. The challenge is directly in front of Kyle Atkins, who has a clear view. Also in front of FO Marcos De Oliviera. How do the two of them first allow Sibiga to show no card and then, apparently, recommend a yellow? That's really incomprehensible. It also puts Sibiga in the position of spending over a full minute telling the LAFC players it wasn't that bad, only for him to then see on video that it was that bad. It looked like Sibiga was managing the personalities well, which is good, but it unnecessarily puts a dent in his credibility.

    I know MLS still deducts points on assessments if you miss a clear KMI and get it corrected by VAR (you lose fewer points than if you don't get it corrected, but you still lose points). So it's wrong to believe referees are actively going for the less controversial call because they have the backup of VAR. But I think it might be subconsciously happening. I think officials are letting their guard down on VC and SFP.
     
  9. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Rapids fans think Nani should have seen red here for attempted headbutts, thoughts?
    1114712476736806912 is not a valid tweet id
     
  10. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes, I think he should have. With the FA Cup incident, this is twice in a day where an attempted headbutt isn’t given despite having VAR.
     
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  11. pr0ner

    pr0ner Member+

    Jan 13, 2007
    Alexandria, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You're right that there is no correlation between Sibiga's PI issues and Rooney's red. However, I think Sibiga was "off" all game.

    There was an extraordinarily long VAR check on Jara's penalty; you'd think Sibiga would have at least gone to the monitor to "sell" how long that check took.

    He did a couple of warnings for PI, one to an LAFC player (not sure if it was Blessing or Kaye) and one to Rodriguez for DCU, but the only PI yellow he gave out was to Junior Moreno for his only foul of the match. DCU players were getting visibly frustrated that LAFC weren't getting cautioned for any (perceived?) PI themselves.

    The Rooney red was a pretty big miss - it looked ugly from where I was sitting in the stadium (at midfield, right behind the broadcast cameras), and the fact that it took so long to get to yellow, let alone needing a VAR check for red, was pretty incredible.
     
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  12. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States


    He's not wrong, but I don't know how well it was picked up by the cameras. If there's an angle that shows it fully...
     
  13. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    1114881095504420865 is not a valid tweet id
     
  14. pr0ner

    pr0ner Member+

    Jan 13, 2007
    Alexandria, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Oh man, Nani's words and actions do NOT look good in that video.
     
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  15. jarbitro

    jarbitro Member+

    Mar 13, 2003
    N'Djamena, Tchad
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That Nani thing is another example of the crew losing focus bc of VAR probably. The JAR should have had that. Maybe its not "enough" to go to VAR, but Nani gave quite a few chances to be caught by someone in real time. Its unsanctioned plays like that which give MLS a bad name. If you follow that on Twitter, MLS is basically being mocked by fans globally over that melt down going unsanctioned. Marrufo is in a tough spot though, because something like a UB caution would likely just inflame it more, but that's the kind of thing Marrufo normally doesn't back down from.
     
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  16. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    You must be confusing Marrufo with Baldomero Toledo or some other referee in MLS. This incident and meltdown is exactly the kind of play Marrufo has backed down from in his entire career. It's why he pretty much gets all the biggest assignments MLS. His card and send off count is extraordinary low for someone with his number of games. Look at these numbers below. He just doesn't give red cards or many cautions.

    http://proreferees.com/stats/referee-stats/referee-stats-2018/

    http://proreferees.com/stats/referee-stats/referee-stats-2017/

    http://proreferees.com/stats/referee-stats/referee-stats-2016/

    http://proreferees.com/stats/referee-stats/referee-stats-2015/

    http://proreferees.com/stats/referee-stats/referee-stats-2014/

    http://proreferees.com/stats/referee-stats/referee-stats-2013/

    You don't go 5 or 6 or 7 seasons without producing a second caution red card in an MLS match (someone remind when was his last second caution send off prior to this season) without "looking the other way" or "backing down" on certain cautions and incidents.

    Even though I don't like his style, I have to concede that Marrufo is very successful at the way he manages a game. Bottom line it works. But, statistically speaking, he isn't a very stringent enforcer of the laws of the game

    This clip right here is a perfect example.

    https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/m...ty-sc-vs-colorado-rapids/details/video/187715

    This is a textbook caution. I'd argue that it should be a red card for DOGSO-H, but, at minimum, it should be a yellow card. What does Marrfuo do? Just call the penalty kick.

    Compare to that to another referee who gives a yellow for this.

    https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/m...akes-vs-portland-timbers/details/video/187624
     
  17. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Though I cannot accurately predict what Marrufo or Fischer would do if the roles were reversed...

    At the FIFA level, it is taught that handling to stop a shot on goal must be a yellow at least. Meanwhile, the concept of yellows for SPA in the penalty area is pretty much extinct; so there’s more wiggle room with the call in Orlando.

    I wouldn’t be shocked if PRO said both calls were accurately made. The shot vs cross is an important distinction.
     
  18. Erocker

    Erocker Member

    Apr 2, 2012
    Club:
    CD Jalapa
    That's an absolute joke that Nani isn't sent off for that...even with VAR. I don't care who the referee is.
     
  19. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I have it on very good authority that PRO wanted VAR to intervene and send off Nani. I say that with 100% certainty.

    Now, why PRO has gone down the path of publicly explaining VAR interventions (good or bad) but not also speaking up when there was a missed intervention... that I cannot answer. Incremental steps, I suppose. But not publicly saying Nani should have seen red undermines Toledo for his previous decision and, in my eyes, makes it very difficult for the next headbutt decision to be properly sanctioned without some serious negative team and fan reaction.

    This is the problem when governing bodies go down the transparency path. Transparency is good. But when it's only partial transparency, people presume that silence speaks volumes and interpret it their own way.
     
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  20. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I heard the same thing through my grapevine. It needed to be addressed publicly IMO.
     
  21. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    No kidding. By not publicly addressing, it supports those who think it should not have been a send off because there was not enough force. I know PRO is focused on its games (and has likely communicated it to its members in a less public way), but I think it is doing a grave disservice to the rest of soccer in this country by leaving that out there--especially, as MR notes, when they have created the illusion of transparency.
     
  22. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I general, I think it would be beneficial to address any particularly controversial incidents, and they've largely done that in previous weeks. They don't have to be missed reviews. Telling us why something was correctly not reviewed is also very helpful!

    For week 6, in addition to Nani, I'd have liked to have seen the Ziegler incident addressed, and perhaps talk about that Zlatan goal?
     
  23. Erocker

    Erocker Member

    Apr 2, 2012
    Club:
    CD Jalapa
    Agree with Massref that the standard it sets for the next ref with a headbutting incident is a problem. Obviously PRO will have addressed this internally. However, since they have not addressed it publicly the next time Kelyn Acosta attempts a headbutt and gets sent off he will tweet nasty about it.
     
  24. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I can tell you that my fellow Rapids fans have taken this as "another" example of the league being biased towards big stars/teams. I'm a little shocked the DisCo hasn't issued a suspension but not that shocked because it is the DisCo.
     
  25. Ismitje

    Ismitje Super Moderator

    Dec 30, 2000
    The Palouse
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Nani scored a hell of a free kick this week, in a game he should not have been playing in. It is important to remember that these non-calls have carry-on effects in subsequent games.
     
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