2019 Week 20 Referee Discussion

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by ManiacalClown, Jul 18, 2019.

  1. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    07/17/19

    Atlanta United vs Houston Dynamo
    Mercedes-Benz Stadium (7PM ET)
    REF: Christopher Penso
    AR1: Brian Dunn
    AR2: Jeremy Kieso
    4TH: Sergii Demianchuk
    VAR: Jon Freemon
    AVAR: Thomas Supple

    New England Revolution vs Vancouver Whitecaps
    Gillette Stadium (7PM ET)
    REF: Robert Sibiga
    AR1: Logan Brown
    AR2: Claudiu Badea
    4TH: Thomas Snyder
    VAR: Alan Kelly
    AVAR: Jozef Batko

    Chicago Fire vs Columbus Crew
    SeatGeek Stadium (8PM ET)
    REF: Armando Villarreal
    AR1: Brian Poeschel
    AR2: Jose Da Silva
    4TH: Lorant Varga
    VAR: Tim Ford
    AVAR: Benjamin Hall-Volpenhein

    Toronto FC vs New York Red Bulls
    BMO Field (8PM ET)
    REF: Silviu Petrescu
    AR1: Cory Richardson
    AR2: Gianni Facchini
    4TH: Yusri Rudolf
    VAR: Guido Gonzales Jr
    AVAR: Robert Schaap

    07/18/19

    FC Cincinnati vs D.C. United
    Nippert Stadium (8PM ET)
    REF: Baldomero Toledo
    AR1: Adam Garner
    AR2: Jeremy Hanson
    4TH: Elton Garcia
    VAR: Malik Badawi
    AVAR: Craig Lowry

    Portland Timbers vs Orlando City
    Providence Park (10PM ET)
    REF: Joe Dickerson
    AR1: Corey Rockwell
    AR2: Micheal Barwegen
    4TH: Farhad Dadkho
    VAR: Allen Chapman
    AVAR: Joshua Patlak

    07/19/19

    LA Galaxy vs Los Angeles FC
    Dignity Health Sports Park (10PM ET)
    REF: Jair Marrufo
    AR1: Frank Anderson
    AR2: Ian Anderson
    4TH: Michael Radchuk
    VAR: Kevin Stott
    AVAR: Fabio Tovar

    07/20/19

    Columbus Crew vs Montreal Impact
    MAPFRE Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Robert Sibiga
    AR1: CJ Morgante
    AR2: Michael Kampmeinert
    4TH: Greg Dopka
    VAR: Ricardo Salazar
    AVAR: Eric Weisbrod

    Philadelphia Union vs Chicago Fire
    Talen Energy Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Rubiel Vazquez
    AR1: Jeremy Kieso
    AR2: Andrew Bigelow
    4TH: Jon Freemon
    VAR: Kevin Terry Jr
    AVAR: Craig Lowry

    Toronto FC vs Houston Dynamoo
    BMO Field (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Alex Chilowicz
    AR1: Claudiu Badea
    AR2: Brian Poeschel
    4TH: Baldomero Toledo
    VAR: Sorin Stoica
    AVAR: Thomas Supple

    Sporting Kansas City vs FC Dallas
    Children’s Mercy Park (8:30PM ET)
    REF: Alan Kelly
    AR1: Kathryn Nesbitt
    AR2: Jose Da Silva
    4TH: Lukasz Szpala
    VAR: Chico Grajeda
    AVAR: Kyle Atkins

    Colorado Rapids vs New York City FC
    Dick’s Sporting Goods Park (9PM ET)
    REF: Christopher Penso
    AR1: Oscar Mitchell-Carvalho
    AR2: TJ Zablocki
    4TH: Malik Badawi
    VAR: Younes Marrakchi
    AVAR: Jonathan Johnson

    Real Salt Lake vs Minnesota United
    Rio Tinto Stadium (10PM ET)
    REF: Dave Gantar
    AR1: Eric Boria
    AR2: Felisha Mariscal
    4TH: Elvis Osmanovic
    VAR: Geoff Gamble
    AVAR: Cameron Blanchard

    Vancouver Whitecaps vs San Jose Earthquakes
    BC Place (10PM ET)
    REF: Silviu Petrescu
    AR1: Brian Dunn
    AR2: Gianni Facchini
    4TH: Alejandro Mariscal
    VAR: Tim Ford
    AVAR: Kevin Klinger

    07/21/19

    Atlanta United vs D.C. United
    Mercedes-Benz Stadium (4PM ET)
    REF: Allen Chapman
    AR1: Jason White
    AR2: Micheal Barwegen
    4TH: Nima Saghafi
    VAR: Jorge Gonzalez
    AVAR: Robert Schaap

    FC Cincinnati vs New England Revolution
    Nippert Stadium (6PM ET)
    REF: Kevin Stott
    AR1: Corey Rockwell
    AR2: Cory Richardson
    4TH: Greg Dopka
    VAR: Ricardo Salazar
    AVAR: Peter Manikowski

    Orlando City vs New York Red Bulls
    Exploria Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Armando Villarreal
    AR1: Logan Brown
    AR2: Gjovalin Bori
    4TH: Sergii Demianchuk
    VAR: Rosendo Mendoza
    AVAR: Jeff Muschik

    Seattle Sounders vs Portland Timbers
    CenturyLink Field (9:30PM ET)
    REF: Drew Fischer
    AR1: Jeremy Hanson
    AR2: Matthew Nelson
    4TH: Alejandro Mariscal
    VAR: Tim Ford
    AVAR: Kevin Klinger
     
  2. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Penso sent off Alberth Elis in the 6th minute tonight for violent conduct. Showed a yellow first for dissent after Elis kicked the ball at the AR following a call, which is already borderline, and then Elis decided it would be a good idea to go chest to chest for the VC red.

    Elis was also one of the three Dynamo players sent off by Penso in Houston last year (vs SKC if I recall).
     
  3. Bubba Atlanta

    Bubba Atlanta Member+

    Mar 2, 2012
    Yep, Atlanta
    Club:
    Atlanta United FC
    I was there. It made the rest of the game a lot of fun for us.
     
  4. Dayton Ref

    Dayton Ref Member+

    May 3, 2012
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    That was the one where he couldn't get to the RRA due to spectators throwing stuff, early August, right? He had come with the crew to say "Hello" at the advanced clinic that day.
     
  5. rh89

    rh89 Member

    Sep 29, 2015
    OR
    Oh god, Drew Fischer with Sounders-Timbers? Buckle up for a shitshow.
     
  6. Roger Allaway

    Roger Allaway Member+

    Apr 22, 2009
    Warminster, Pa.
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We are about two-thirds of the way through the MLS season, and so far there haven't been any rookie center referees in MLS in 2019. I'm surprised by this, but wondering whether maybe I shouldn't be. There were three in 2018 and three in 2017, but maybe they didn't do their first games until later in the season than this.

    In any case, there are 15 people who have been center referees in NWSL this season and also have been fourth officials in MLS this season. I was expecting that one or two of them would be assigned as center referees in MLS sooner or later, but so far it hasn't happened.
     
  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You'll see a rookie center right at the start of August. I suspect you'll see more later in the season on certain matches that might have less impact on the playoff race--but that's just a guess based on some of the initial assignments in previous years.

    But to the larger point, the fact that Dickerson, Touchan, Ford and Vazquez (with Gonzales Jr. and Rivas also having some opportunities) have become regular parts of the rotation is a big story. For several years, PRO seemed to have no bench. Referees are aging out, being pushed out, or failing fitness while the league expands and implemented VAR, so it's important to not just identify the new talent, but develop and hire it. PRO has finally done that.

    Also, look at the 4ths this week. There are 18 matches. Other than Toledo and Saghafi, none of them are regular centers. Remove Mariscal, who has been a 4th a long time, and you have 12 officials who you likely had never even heard of 2 years ago unless you're a serious USL fan or a referee friend/nerd. That's remarkable. So not only has a bench been identified and developed, but it's really big now. It's going to be interesting to see which ones get the opportunity at rookie whistles (after the one already assigned), because there's so many to choose from.
     
    sitruc, GlennAA11 and Roger Allaway repped this.
  8. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Going to be very interesting to see what the suspension is here. I fully expect the argument from fans and certain league personnel that it shouldn't be more than one game because it wasn't truly "violent."

    Good for Penso drawing that line. I fear there are other referees that would not have.
     
    Bubba Atlanta repped this.
  9. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    And we're probably past the point at which it is a waste of electrons to suggest that MLS should join the rest of the world in automatic longer suspensions for VC....
     
  10. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Only major league in the world, I believe, where there's even a chance that Dwyer and Elis could only sit one match each.
     
  11. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    It's not a fear, it's 100% fact. Of the current roster, I can safely say that Toledo and Elfath are probably the only ones that would give it 100%.

    No way would Marrufo give a red card there and I have my doubts on Kelly as well. Sagafi had a similar incident earlier this year on a game in Atlanta where a player bumped him as he was issuing a yellow and did nothing about it (3:50 mark of the video)

     
  12. Beau Dure

    Beau Dure Member+

    May 31, 2000
    Vienna, VA
    So no one was watching when Toledo called a PK against a defender in the wall whose arm was folded into his body and then let the PK stand when the person taking it completely stopped mid run-up?

    Something I don't understand about the Laws, or was that a dire sequence?
     
    sitruc repped this.
  13. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The kick taker didn't feint the kick IMO because he wasn't quite in kicking distance when he stopped the run up. Borderline, but I'd say legal. Barely.

    I still need to see the handling. People on Twitter said he moved his arm which kinda sounds like the sort of thing refs like to warn the wall about.
     
  14. Beau Dure

    Beau Dure Member+

    May 31, 2000
    Vienna, VA
    He did move the arm from his side to in front of his chest, where the ball was about to hit him.

    I think I've learned something I didn't know about PKs -- I'd always heard that stutter-steps were pushing it and outright stopping at any point in the run-up was an infringement. Now that I've looked at the Laws, I guess I was wrong -- along with pretty much every TV commentator I've heard. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised by the latter.
     
    JasonMa and ManiacalClown repped this.
  15. Thegreatwar

    Thegreatwar Member

    Seacoast United
    May 28, 2015
    New Hampshire
    ESPN just showed Rockwell’s name as Corey Blackwell ...
     
    JasonMa repped this.
  16. sitruc

    sitruc Member+

    Jul 25, 2006
    Virginia
    TT (always confused) read it as such too.
     
    Thegreatwar repped this.
  17. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Penso’s mechanics when issuing the VC red were really good. He made sure he was out of arm’s reach as he issued the card following the contact. Had he issued the card while still in close range, he opens himself up for additional physical contact.
     
  18. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've finally seen the handball, and I'm perfectly fine with the call.
     
  19. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    Leicester City FC
    Would you have had a problem if it hadn't been called?
     
  20. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    The kicker stopping in the run up on a PK is (or was--I don't know if it changed) an offense in high school soccer
     
  21. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not really, but I recognize that they're being instructed to consider this deliberate handling. I've always felt that it's a bit harsh to punish what I often consider self-preservation instinct.
     
    QuietSide repped this.
  22. QuietSide

    QuietSide Member

    Oct 18, 2002
    Can you point to such instruction online somewhere?

    Just to clarify, I'm asking a serious question. Not trying to be a jerk.

    To me, Arriola's arm is literally plastered to his body. It moves, from protecting the family jewels to protecting his chest, but honestly, if the ball doesn't hit his arm (if it even does - the video is terrible quality) it would have hit his nipple.

    It's crazy to me to think a person standing in a wall with his arm across his chest should be penalized if the ball hits him in the arm.

    But if there is guidance out there saying this should be called, I'm interested in seeing it so I can learn...
     
    Thegreatwar repped this.
  23. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm trying to find it. Maybe someone with better organization skills can help me out.
     
  24. Bubba Atlanta

    Bubba Atlanta Member+

    Mar 2, 2012
    Yep, Atlanta
    Club:
    Atlanta United FC
    It is specifically called out as not being an infraction under HS rules, FWIW (which is very little indeed in an MLS referee forum).
     
  25. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Anybody have a clip of the play?
     

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