2019 Week 12 MLS Referee Discussion

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by rh89, May 14, 2019.

  1. rh89

    rh89 Member

    Sep 29, 2015
    OR
    05/15/19
    Toronto FC vs D.C. United
    BMO Field (8PM ET)
    REF: Drew Fischer
    AR1: CJ Morgante
    AR2: Claudiu Badea
    4TH: Luis Guardia
    VAR: Matt Franz
    AVAR: Jeff Muschik

    Houston Dynamo vs Portland Timbers
    BBVA Compass Stadium (8:30PM ET)
    REF: Ted Unkel
    AR1: Brian Poeschel
    AR2: Gjovalin Bori
    4TH: Rosendo Mendoza
    VAR: Malik Badawi
    AVAR: Jonathan Johnson

    Vancouver Whitecaps vs Atlanta United
    BC Place (10PM ET)
    REF: Baldomero Toledo
    AR1: Philippe Briere
    AR2: Cory Richardson
    4TH: Joe Dickerson
    VAR: Alejandro Mariscal
    AVAR: Mauricio Navarro

    Seattle Sounders vs Orlando City
    CenturyLink Field (10:30PM ET)
    REF: Dave Gantar
    AR1: Jeff Hosking
    AR2: Jeremy Kieso
    4TH: Farhad Dadkho
    VAR: Daniel Radford
    AVAR: Cameron Blanchard

    05/16/19
    Los Angeles vs FC Dallas
    Banc of California Stadium (10PM ET)
    REF: Allen Chapman
    AR1: Jeremy Hanson
    AR2: Michael Kampmeinert
    4TH: Alex Chilowicz
    VAR: Guido Gonzales Jr
    AVAR: Felisha Mariscal

    05/18/19

    Montreal Impact vs New England Revolution
    Saputo Stadium (1PM ET)
    REF: Ramy Touchan
    AR1: Gianni Facchini
    AR2: Logan Brown
    4TH: Fotis Bazakos
    VAR: Jorge Gonzalez
    AVAR: Robert Schaap

    Real Salt Lake vs Toronto FC
    Rio Tinto Stadium (3PM ET)
    REF: Joe Dickerson
    AR1: Philippe Briere
    AR2: Apolinar Mariscal
    4TH: Rosendo Mendoza
    VAR: Allen Chapman
    AVAR: Jozef Batko

    San Jose Earthquakes vs Chicago Fire
    Avaya Stadium (3:30PM ET)
    REF: Alex Chilowicz
    AR1: Brian Dunn
    AR2: Felisha Mariscal
    4TH: Alejandro Mariscal
    VAR: Victor Rivas
    AVAR: Cameron Blanchard

    Philadelphia Union vs Seattle Sounders
    Talen Energy Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Marcos DeOliveira
    AR1: Jose Da Silva
    AR2: Eric Boria
    4TH: Lorant Varga
    VAR: Jose Carlos Rivero
    AVAR: Craig Lowry

    Minnesota United vs Columbus Crew
    Allianz Field (8PM ET)
    REF: Dave Gantar
    AR1: Brian Poeschel
    AR2: Kyle Longville
    4TH: Baldomero Toledo
    VAR: Malik Badawi
    AVAR: Thomas Supple

    Sporting Kansas City vs Vancouver Whitecaps
    Children’s Mercy Park (8:30PM ET)
    REF: Tim Ford
    AR1: Corey Rockwell
    AR2: Gjovalin Bori
    4TH: Michael Radchuk
    VAR: Sorin Stoica
    AVAR: Jonathan Johnson

    Houston Dynamo vs D.C. United
    BBVA Compass Stadium (8:30PM ET)
    REF: Rubiel Vazquez
    AR1: Ian Anderson
    AR2: Andrew Bigelow
    4TH: Elvis Osmanovic
    VAR: Jon Freemon
    AVAR: Kevin Klinger

    05/19/19

    FC Dallas vs Los Angeles FC
    Toyota Stadium (3PM ET)
    REF: Christopher Penso
    AR1: CJ Morgante
    AR2: Cory Richardson
    4TH: David Barrie
    VAR: Silviu Petrescu
    AVAR: Jeff Muschik

    Orlando City vs FC Cincinnati
    Orlando City Stadium (3PM ET)
    REF: Nima Saghafi
    AR1: Eduardo Mariscal
    AR2: Chris Elliott
    4TH: Luis Guardia
    VAR: Geoff Gamble
    AVAR: Eric Weisbrod

    New York Red Bulls vs Atlanta United
    Red Bull Arena (5PM ET)
    REF: Robert Sibiga
    AR1: Matthew Nelson
    AR2: Claudiu Badea
    4TH: Lorant Varga
    VAR: Edvin Jurisevic
    AVAR: Peter Manikowski

    LA Galaxy vs Colorado Rapids
    Dignity Health Sports Park (8PM ET)
    REF: Drew Fischer
    AR1: Frank Anderson
    AR2: Micheal Barwegen
    4TH: Alejandro Mariscal
    VAR: Chico Grajeda
    AVAR: Apolinar Mariscal
     
  2. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    International obligations keeping four referees away this week.

    If Kelly stays in Poland through the knockout stages, the second week of June is going to be rough as Gold Cup and WWC officials will both be gone.
     
  3. rh89

    rh89 Member

    Sep 29, 2015
    OR
    Yeah, looks like a lot of referees are busy, and new names (though I'm less up to date with who's who).

    Unkel back in action, and DeOliveira remains active. Can one assume that they've completed their penance and are free, or are they back in action because of a shortage? Or maybe some of both?
     
  4. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Unkel had a lot of May assignments and one was affected by what happened in DC.

    De Oliviera is a harder to figure out. He never really regularly got middles before this year. But with expansion and the move to find new referees, he was starting to get slotted in more frequently. Then he got a longer break, which would have been totally in line with assigning practices in past seasons, but looked like a bit of a deliberate move given where things are now. All in all, I think the belief is they need newer/younger blood right now and they don't want to completely sideline him quite yet. But I don't think anyone should arrive at the conclusion that his outings are being highly assessed.
     
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  5. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    By the way, tonight is CJ Morgante's first match of the year.
     
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  6. Dayton Ref

    Dayton Ref Member+

    May 3, 2012
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    AS @ManiacalClown pointed out on twitter, Kevin Stott is back on the field for the first time this year.

    Orange County vs Austin Bold
    Championship Soccer Stadium at OC Great Park (10PM ET)
    REF: Kevin Stott
    AR1: Matthew Rodman
    AR2: Jeffrey Swartzel
    4TH: Daniel Radford
     
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  7. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We should see Stott back on the field in MLS in June.
     
  8. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Notes: 1st and 2nd VAR assignments for Malik Badawi.
     
  9. TheRealBilbo

    TheRealBilbo Member+

    Apr 5, 2016
    He did ref night in Cincinnati last year. Impressive young man. I was wondering if he would get a MLS center this year.
     
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  10. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He's been getting 4ths, which I assume puts him on the short list for trial spots, but I wouldn't know where he compares to others in that department. Two VAR assignments this week may indicate that he's being pushed in that direction.
     
  11. TheRealBilbo

    TheRealBilbo Member+

    Apr 5, 2016
    Are those different paths? It seems the majority of the VAR assignments have been going to either up and comers or guys nearing the end of their on-field careers. Part of that is the observation that there seems to have been very few new faces in the middle in the PRO era prior to this year. VAR being a new required slot, along with a limited (and aging) roster of experienced centers, and the increasing number of games due to expansion seem to necessitate some flux in useage of people across those roles.

    I would think that the want guys on the referee list to be able fill the Referee, 4th, and VAR slots. According to the roster on the web site, the Fourth Official designation has been done away with, and some of the VAR's have gotten MLS middles, for example, the Cincinnati favorite Guido Gonzalez Jr.
     
  12. frankieboylampard

    Mar 7, 2016
    USA
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    I thought they have more flexibility at PRO with trials and bringing newer faces in Bc of the latest CBA.
     
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  13. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Remember that there is specific live training required before you can do an MLS VAR. It took awhile for Badawi to get that. It doesn’t mean he’s not on a referee path. It’s just another place for him to plug in.

    There are a bunch of different types of VARs right now. Some are veteran CRs who can’t pass fitness. Some are veteran CRs who PRO didn’t want on the field any longer. Some are veteran 4ths who either had their chance and lost it or were never going to get their chance. And most are simply active veteran referees who are also skilled at VAR.

    And then the rest are younger and up-and-coming. Some of that latter group will make it as CRs and some won’t. But I don’t think PRO has firmly put anyone in the “yes” or “no” camp from that younger group yet. If you see a younger or newer referee who is doing FO only and not VAR, that simply means they don’t have the VAR training—it doesn’t mean they’ve skipped ahead of others who are splitting VAR/FO duty.
     
  14. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thanks for clarifying. You know far more about all that business than I do.
     
  15. seattlebeach

    seattlebeach Member

    May 11, 2015
    Not Seattle, Not Beach
    This may belong more in the VAR thread, but I feel like I always think about that wrong, so I'll put it here.

    I was at the SEA/ORL game tonight, and we had a lengthy pause for VAR that felt very much like the Serie A clip discussed last week - there was just no way this felt like what people who love watching soccer want from the game.

    I've gone back to timestamp from YouTube TV:

    67:20 Lodeiro (Sounders) potentially makes ball-to-hand contact - Gantar looks to be in position to see this
    67:27 Bwana (Sounders) scores (after a few passes)
    ... Time passes: you can see snippets of this on the TV broadcast - Gantar spends the entire time with one finger to his ear and chatting (with a smile) with the Orlando players. Everyone is very calm on the field but the stadium is getting just louder and louder. It just feels like it is taking _forever_. (By the way, a sub comes on during this time, though Gantar doesn't seems to wave him on or notice? I might have missed that. Also, this game was verrrry low-key - "felt like a friendly" said someone in my row - and so tensions didn't rise like they could in another game.)
    ~70:54 Gantar makes the VAR signal (it's off screen)
    72:18 Gantar returns to the middle and signals for a goal, no complaints from Orlando

    Did the VAR (Radford) decide to review the play for ~3:30 and then decided to recommend an on-field review? It was clearly not "clear and obvious," either during run of play or the very first replay you saw. Were they talking about it before Gantar went over? The whole thing felt bizarre. If Gantar had seen contact worth calling in real time, ok (the Sounders fan next to me saw it and thought he should call it); but in the stadium - for the fans, Sounders fans or no - it just felt like a non-soccer experience, and so strange to have that pause for something that just didn't seem to merit it.
     
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  16. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Strange indeed. From the body language, it felt like there was some kind of technical problem in the booth or something, but I really don't know. Took far too long for something that just wasn't a clear and obvious error.

    The review sent down in Vancouver for potential VC was strange as well. It was such a low bar for intervention that I suspect the VAR was treating it as a "missed incident" as opposed to a "clear error." That said, even if the referee completely missed what happened, that he came away from the review without even a yellow card should demonstrate how unnecessary the stoppage was.
     
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  17. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Have the various public reviews for last week been published yet? I'm curious as to what they may say about the variety of issues in Colorado-Salt Lake
     
  18. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Expect it tomorrow
     
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  19. rh89

    rh89 Member

    Sep 29, 2015
    OR
    Rough for Michael Kampmeinert to have that goal overturned. Should have kept the flag down. But was Chapman's whistle before the ball was in the net?
     
  20. GlennAA11

    GlennAA11 Member+

    Jun 12, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    definitely blew the whistle before the goal was scored. That seems like a pretty gigantic error.
     
  21. Ismitje

    Ismitje Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 30, 2000
    The Palouse
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That was a good goal but the whistle came before it went in the net (didn't impact the play - Rossi was about to shoot and the defender had slid on past). Then it was overturned on VAR. Are the VAR replays picture only, or sound? Would the ref have been able to hear when his own whistle went vis-a-vis when the shot was taken/the ball crossed the line?

    The AR erred totally in raising the flag on the attacking play.
     
  22. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    VAR replays definitely include sound because the whistle is what stops the game. If the whistle blows before the ball crosses the line, you cannot give the goal, incorrect offside decision or otherwise. I really, really hope the broadcast audio wasn't synced properly because this is a massive mistake otherwise. It's so close I'm thinking that's probably the case, but I certainly don't know for sure.
     
  23. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States


    I mean, you could give red for this, and I wouldn't be upset about it, but if it's not clear and obvious enough for VAR, which it isn't, it's probably not worth having a meltdown about it on national TV.
     
  24. LampLighter

    LampLighter Member

    Bugeaters FC
    Apr 13, 2019
    Twellman is about building his brand now, his meltdown about the USMNT not making the world cup was huge. He now deals in HOT TAKES.
     
  25. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'll never forget MLS Cup 2015. There was an obviously missed ball out of touch that led to a Portland goal, and Twellman spent most of the game revising his estimate of just how far out of play the ball had been. He started at two yards and eventually whittled it down to about 2 feet by the end of the game. 3-D modeling showed the actual distance was about 18 inches.

    It was a bad miss, and rightly needed to be pointed out, but Twellman's hyperbole about it was just otherworldly.
     
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