All true, we had a bad tournament. The above user is just noting that it's pretty crazy the difference between the results mexico and the US had in the world cup considering at the very least we were about even 6 months ago. No need to be salty
Part of it is just tournament play, too, combined with youth play. Mexico needed a big win against a creampuff in the Solomon Islands to get out of the group, IIRC. If they had been in a group like ours, they might not have made it.
Fair. I guess part of what I was attempting to convey is to avoid sounding like the CONMEBOL teams. For example, Venezuela beats Argentina and all of a sudden Venezuela somehow feels that they have historically accomplished as much as Argentina. Colombia beats Brazil and Colombia thinks that they are at Brazil's level etc...
No, no, no. This is exactly what I am talking about. Mexico, in the same tournament, beat Japan 2-0 and just beat Netherlands last night. Anyways, dropping it here.
This is a fantastic point. To piggyback on your thinking, I will bet that some Mexican fans will think they they are superior to the US when they need to rely on players developed in the US for many of their game changing plays. Thank goodness you came into this forum to set any delusional Mexican fans straight. I know that this was your purpose because you don’t strike me as the type of person who would come into another forum for the sole purpose of trolling, right?
Ah yes these situations are just alike, for sure I never get the saltiness in these situations. I want Mexico to be good, I want the US to be good, I want Canada to be good. It's better for all of us to be good soccer nations to bring up CONCACAF. Iron sharpens iron etc
Those are the facts right there. Any comparison between Mexico's U17 program and ours is not going to be flattering whether it's head-to-head or common opponents. Personally I feel that's because we had a poor system, poor coaching, and the USA players lacked mental toughness in key moments. Any comparison between the youth systems as a whole includes this tournament as no more than just a data point. On the whole, results have been good if not great. Despite this my confidence is trending downwards and I don't trust Earnie/Gregg/Wicky/etc to fix that.
Unfortunately, trolling or not, it still seems that no matter from where kids on Mexican U-17 teams came from, they are at the WC to win it, because it's what Mexican U-17 teams supposed to do; while our kids have a goal to advance from the group.
The Gregg tactics at the youth level are not a bad idea. Ussoccer fans have bitched for years that we don't play possession soccer and it's built through teaching the players how to do it at a young age. The problem with the u17's were that after the build up play the offensive creativity was gone. Reyna decides to be selfish, Busio is not a guy to make those plays, Doub/Jasson/Yow are not lethal or creative players at that level, Leyva/Saldana need a more play making 8/10 next to them (insert Bryang Kayo), and Pepi needs service to score. The ussoccer problem across the board isn't how were building out of the back, it's that we don't have the guys who are aggressive and creative enough to transition it to the final third. The u17's also lacked charecter, they did not show leadership and grit out there when down. Look at the fight in the u16's yesterday in the Nike Friendlies, that right there was what we were missing! The u20's had those players and it showed in June. That team could've been forced to use these tactics and they still would have bullied teams. The USMNT instead have guys like Christian Roldan, Paul Arriola, Jordan Morris, and Gyasi Zardes to work with. We really need a complete playmaking 10 at most levels and outside of the recent 20's we havent had that and it's essentially broken the system.
Who is playing with a Playmaking 10? Who is winning games with possession? It is like we are 8 years behind and are only up to 2012 and trying to emulate Spain. Meanwhile, France just won the WC without possession. The teams at the top of the EPL and BL don't play to hold the ball with short passes. The game is a transition game. The Sounders just won MLS Cup without possession and at home. So, not every American is 8 years behind. Our best coach is in the UCL playing a high tempo transistion system. Our second best coach is 3rd in the Bundesliga playing a high tempo transistion system. Our best player was raised in a similar system. Our two next best players are CMs on teams that play a high tempo transistion system. Tab Ramos's U20 was very technical and passed at a high success rate but were also very high tempo and vertical. All the above teams and players play an aggressive defense. Gregg and Wicky play a passive mid-block defense. It makes our players passive and it is hard for the brain to be passive in one phase then turn it on and be aggressive in another. The tactics used in September-October by the senior and U17 teams were a disaster. Not only were they easily countered by all our competition that cared to, but they made our players passive and reactive.
Wicky on the move ... https://www.chicagofirefc.com/post/2019/12/27/chicago-fire-fc-names-raphael-wicky-head-coach
Fingers crossed for Matt Pilkington. In my opinion he is the best DA coach and I think he’s ready for the next step up.
I felt this at the time, and only feel stronger about it now - I think we're going to look back on this cycle and be impressed by how many useful talents it produced for the senior team. Wicky just managed the squad in the WC, possibly having his hands tied by US when it came to play style and in turn selection. That set up players to fail. Also, the talent was far from evenly distributed. There were holes at wing, cb, 6, and maybe rb. But I think there may be a future national team player there with each of Reyna (obviously), Pepi, Leyva, KHF, Bello, Scally, Busio, AOC, Gray, Odunze, Las, Kayo, and Carrera. Of those who weren't selected I think Gomez, Cuevas, Pynadath, Tolkin, and a few others have a shot. Look how much Reyna's ability was suppressed. Utilization and not having too many holes matter. What's important is what this group ultimately produces at the highest level.
The team was weak up the spine and some of the top talent was young for the age group (Pepi, Leyva, KHF I think). Perhaps Wicky added to it, perhaps not. But central midfield and CB were real problems, even if some of the players have upside (or are strong prospects at other positions). Most of the National Team talent from this group is going to come from players that played wide or will play wide, I think.
If there is this much potential quality in the '02s, and if the '01s really are as good as we hope, U.S. Soccer really needs to get the U19 program up and running again. (Or, at least, I should look back at those callups -- there were a lot in 2016/17 when it looked like the program was really gonna be A Thing -- and figure out whether they yielded much...)
The only players that stood out for me were Reyna, Pepi, Bello, and Busio. I was disappointed with the others maybe because so many people talked so much about them being good.
but they played really well in qualifying, and maybe Reyna being so pedestrian is a sign nobody should have drawn much of a conclusion from the performances in the WC, rather evaluated them previously and based on tools
With one sale (Scally), one potential one that seems to have been incorrectly scotched (Busio), one champions league-level breakout (Reyna) and two solid beginnings to MLS campaigns (Pepi, Leyva), it seems like the market value of the top end of the u17 world cup team is much higher than their actual performance. Plausible they had just some bad days at the office, or Wicky was or is just that bad (Chicago Fire performance so far suggests otherwise), or there was some weird USSF ukase mucking things up that we've not learned about.
The locks for the USMNT long term are Gio Reyna and Kobe Hernandez-Foster as they are the obvious eye popping talents. The others I think have a chance because of the position they play is weak or they have a good club situation are Scally, Kayo, Las, Bello, and Carerra. I don't think any 2002's are worth getting looks long term as there are numerous prospects in other age groups who are better than them. The 2003's have Nyeman, JOGO, Chifamba, Pepi, Leyva, Cuevas, J Perez, Sealy, Paredes, Che, Walls, Bohui, and Cowell because those are the high ceiling players that I rate.
He's now been announced as part of the incoming class at Wake for 2020, so I guess he's still an amateur... https://godeacs.com/news/2020/4/8/mens-soccer-muuss-welcomes-nine-in-2020-signing-class.aspx
I saw this point made by several people on twitter, and it is an awesome stat. Those of us who've been around a while remember when only a handful of US U17 squad members ended up signing pro contracts. 1329517396554608644 is not a valid tweet id GK Damian Las: Fulham GK Chituru Odunze: Leicester GK Aaron Cervantes: Rangers/Orange County SC DFJoe Scally: NYCFC (on his way to Gladbach) DF Nico Carrera: Holstein Kiel DF George Bello: Atlanta United DF Kobe Hernandez-Foster: Wolfsburg DF Adam Armour: Nurnberg DF Tayvon Grey: NYCFC DF Sebastian Anderson: Colorado MF Danny Leyva: Seattle MF Bryang Kayo: Wolfsburg MF Adam Saldana: LAGII MF Ethan Dobbeleare: Seattle MF Maximilian Dietz: Freiburg FW Gianluca Busio: SKC FW Ricardo Pepi: FCD FW Gio Reyna: Dortmund FW Griffin Yow: DCU FW Alfonso Ocampo-Chavez: Seattle FW Andres Jasson: NYCFC