Review: 2019 U-20 World Cup Review

Discussion in 'Youth National Teams' started by tbonepat11, Jun 8, 2019.

  1. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    That former point is really relevant. I don’t expect these guys to get call ups unless they force GGG’s hand. He’s just horrific w/ player selection w/clear and moronic biases and preferences.
     
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  2. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    There’s a lot here I disagree with.

    1. Claiming Gonzalez should’ve been on the team two years ago is revisionist history. Check the threads from after qualifying. No one suggested that Gonzalez should make the U-20 WC team. He only made the qualifying team because Ramos couldn’t get some of his main CM’s released. He was a reserve on the qualifying team.

    2. Adams wasn’t exactly playing as a #10. It was the same style of formation as this tournament with a #6 in front of double 8’s/10’s. This cycle they were more offensive and closer to 10’s. Last cycle they were more defensive and closer to 8’s. That’s down to the personnel available at Ramos disposal. No one in their right mind would’ve used Adams as a lone 6 two years ago. His own club team used him as a RWB because they didn’t think he had the defensive discipline to play a defensive role centrally in their system.

    3. I don’t understand the insistence to blame the struggles of Mendez and Pomykal on Ramos. They combined for 0G, 2A in 691 minutes, according to transfermarkt. One of those assists is a bogus accreditation towards Mendez on Weah’s individual effort against Qatar, so the two of them brought almost no offensive and defensive impact. We could’ve all forecasted that the #6 in midfield would have to do heavy lifting defensively, but the justification from some for why Ledezma barely played and why Carleton was left off was that those two players had earned those spots based on qualifying (mostly games against pub-league level players). Ramos stuck with that and he got that decision wrong.

    That was his biggest mistake with this squad. The end product in attack came almost exclusively from the strikers (Soto, Weah, Rennicks). The attacking mid types (Mendez, Pomykal, KDLF, Llanez, Ledezma) provided almost nothing offensively, and the only two who showed well (Ledezma and Llanez) barely played. I think it should also be pointed out that de la Fuente and Llanez didn’t produce any goals or assists in a combined 443 minutes and Ramos chose to bring them to the tournament playing up a cycle (knowing the struggles players playing up a cycle often can have) instead of a player who is playing regularly at club level in a good league and produces end product (Amon).
     
  3. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    I'm not Ramos, I'm not even ussoccer97531, I'm totally working in hindsight. Just pointing out that Ramos had what would turn out to be the #6 for the best team in North America and the #6 for a Champions League Bundesliga club in his pool and played Zelalem and Jones at the #6.

    We can only hope to look back and say the same thing about 2019 haha.

    I think having Pomykal ahead of Mendez is why they lacked end product. Oh and while Weah did great for the Mendez assist you are trying to take back, Weah also had his shot saved on the pass of the tournament earlier from Mendez.

    Pomykal does lack end product. That is why I'm saying he should have been the 8 and Mendez the 10, or if we are doing 8/10s like Gregg, then Pomykal should have been the 8/10 (Roldan/McKennie) and Mendez the 10/8 (Djorde/Pulisic).

    There is no reason Mendez couldn't play as Dempsey played most of his career with Fulham or the USMNT.

    I'm saying, we might have had more scoring punch if he had set his midfield up differently. You are saying you disagree because the way the midfield was aligned didn't lead to any scoring punch.

    And I'm not touching that landmine.
     
  4. Thundering165

    Thundering165 Member+

    North Carolina FC
    United States
    May 1, 2017
    Raleigh
    I don't remember anyone clamoring for Jona Gonzalez to get a spot at the time, true, but we weren't the ones watching practices. The fact is someone who is paid to recognize talent though Derrick Jones was a better 6 than Jonathan Gonzalez

    Honestly, in 2017 Tab made bad choices in CM. He brought Jones, Zelalem, and Williamson, 3 USL quality players. Gonzalez, Parks, and Yueill were available.

    I wouldn't be surprised if in 2 years we see some of the CMs left off the squad performing at a much higher level than the ones who were there. It does seem to be a blind spot for Ramos.
     
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  5. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    The weaknesses in defending make the exclusion of Sands all the more confounding. W/McKennie too injured to really play other than a forgettable performance against Qatar, and Keita as god awful and worse than most suggested (had the one solid performance and was subpar or worse in every other start), why in gods name did he fail to bring Sands? He doesn't rate him? Guy is a starter in the MLS and looking more than equipped to handle a starting gig at his age. I remain shocked at that inclusion, it's not a stretch to imagine we make the semi's if we bring Sands. Competent defensive support was what was missing on both of Ecuador's goals (admittedly the midfield was 100% responsible for the 1st one).
     
  6. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    I understand the points being made about how Adams and Gonzalez developed, but at the time, I don't think you could've said they would've been as useful if they were used in the way you are suggesting.

    Would they have been better than the options that were used? They might've been, but I don't think that means that Ramos was wrong in his assessment of them at that time.
     
  7. Dave Marino-Nachison

    Jun 9, 1999
    Not a direct response to you, but thought I would quickly look back at some old data to get a sense for how U20 pools tends to evolve. I went back as far as Rongen for now.

    2007: 2 guys on Finals roster with WC qualifying appearances (seems like a good barometer for "better than cap, not as tough as WC roster), 2 guys in pool with WCQs not on Finals roster -- plus 2 guys w/WCQs not in pool at all

    2009: 3 guys on Finals roster w/WCQs, 1 guy in pool w/WCQs not on Finals roster -- plus 3 guys w/WCQs not in pool

    2011: 2 guys on Qualifying roster (team did not qualify) w/WCQs, 3 guys in pool w/WCQs not on Qualfying roster

    2013: 3 guys on Finals roster w/WCQs; 2 guys in pool w/WCQs not on Finals roster

    2015: 2 guys on Finals roster w/WCQs​

    Total (could mean some guys are counted twice across pools, I didn't check): 12 guys on Finals rosters w/WCQs, 8 guys in pool with WCQs not on Finals rosters, and 5 guys w/WCQs not in pool (48%/32%/20%)​

    Finals rosters are arbitrary enough that I think for long-term tracking purposes they're only somewhat interesting. If I had more time I'd look up how many cap/WCQ guys were not U20 pool members. I don't have more time.
     
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  8. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
  9. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
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  10. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    Just not really getting the Soto equivocation. I thought he had a fantastic tournament. Every finish he had was beautifully done. He stumbles, nearly falls on his first goal of the tournament, manages to hold his balance and fire home w/power. How do you do that after nearly falling down a half second earlier as the delivery is sent into the box? he regained his balance, tracked the ball, and headed home w/accuracy and power. Fantastic. The second goal he managed to kind of dummy/let the ball slip between his legs as he ran so he could finish more accurately and w/more of the goal open to him, also beautifully done. His run was great on Ledezma's through ball, and his finish was pitch perfect. His second goal, like the first, comes from an absolutely world class delivery, this time from Weah, and while he probably takes an extra step in both instances the won't be available to him at the senior international level his calm on the ball in both instances is preternatural and his finish is perfect. When I think about that, and compare that to say, Bradley's bizarre struggle w/not hitting the ball directly at the goalie in WC '14 and that era (and I viewed/view that as an aberration, typically he was a great finisher, but for whatever reason he was hitting the ball straight at the keeper repeatedly for the last year or two of the elite, semi-elite era of his career), or Zardes' cement boot touch, it's just night and day. If Zardes can find a place in GGG's team, or hell freaking Baird, those guys couldn't sling the plastic bag holding Soto's jock, let alone the strap itself.

    I know I'm getting ahead of myself a touch, he's a kid, we've seen countless guys plow through over the years who just couldn't make at the international club level, the international level, or the MLS Club level, so why be such a big buyer on Soto. I just see things differently.

    I started watching the U20's in 2003. I wasn't aware of the tournament until probably 2002, definitely not in time to see the '99 U17 run, or the disappointing '01 U20 run in comparison. But looking at those teams, I found 42 listed Forwards across the 9 squads (more like 40 since Adu is listed 3 times ('03, '05 and '07). Breaking them down into: USMNT Regulars, and USMNT semi-regulars, versus guys I saw as relevant vs not relevant:

    Regulars:
    GAM
    Jozy
    Wood
    Sargent: Giving Benefit of the doubt

    Semi/Occasional Call ups:
    Adu
    Shea (as winger)
    Lennon (as Winger)

    Knocking out the two extra Adu's, and the 5 from this cycle who haven't been blooded yet, that leaves 35 potential Forwards/Wingers across 8 cycles, and of those 35, 3 have become regulars, and I'll add Sargent as a 4th, giving us a hit rate of about 11.4%, which jumps up to 20% if you point to Regulars as well as semi-occasional call ups (Not sure what should be done w/regards to Brooks Lennon (certainly a winger option at times) and Ebobisse (still getting looks/on the periphery)). I am curious if that hit rate is similar to other teams or significantly worse. It's particularly galling to look at the options between 2009-2015, which again, underline why our attack was continually so anemic the past half decade or so beyond Pulisic, Dempsey, and some Wood poaching. What's exciting to me is that when you look at the current cycle, and heck even 2017, guys like Soto, Sargent, Weah and maybe Llanez all look like potential future USMNT's in a way that nobody other than maybe Rubin looked like between '09-'15, you could also toss in Ebobisse as a long shot, and Lennon as depth.


    Beginning of Huge Digression about U20 Forward/Wing Forward Prospects, enter at your own peril:


    2003:

    Rated:

    Adu: I thought the world was at his fingertips.

    GAM: I'm of two minds. He was a force in a way that Soto wasn't, but the way GAM was a force was more power and athleticism than technique, and I think you could see this in the dip in form post ACL injury. I think GAM was every bit as good as Soto in '03, but I don't think he came out of that tournament w/the same ceiling.

    Quaranta I had high hopes for him. Alas it wasn't to be. The tournament didn't raise his stock at all.

    Not relevant:
    Knox Cameron: Irrelevant.
    Mike Magee: Was not buying.

    2005:

    Rated:

    Freddy Adu: Buying big time.

    Not relevant:
    Chad Barrett: Even w/the huge goal against Argentina, I just didn't see him other than as a jag.
    Jacob Peterson: Blah
    Sammy Ochoa: Irrelevant

    9
    2007:

    Rated:

    Jozy: I was buying, buying, buying.
    Adu: Still buying.

    Not Relevant:
    Zimmerman: Nope
    Akpan: Nope
    Ferrari: Nope

    14
    2009:

    Rated:
    Shea: Not sold, but thought he might be a worthwhile winger.

    Not Relevant:
    Marosevic: Nope
    Taylor: Nope

    17
    2011:

    Rated:

    None

    Not Relevant:
    Wood: I didn't see what he had to offer. I was wrong.
    Doyle: Blah
    Arreola: Nope
    Salgado: Nope

    21
    2013:

    Rated:

    None

    Not relevant:
    Villareal
    Cuevas
    Hernandez
    Garcia
    Pineda

    I don't think we've ever had a worse collection of Forwards prospects since the days of Ronald Reagan and Tip O'Neil if not Carter.

    26
    2015:

    Rated:
    Rubin

    Not Relevant:
    Tall
    Allen
    Thompson
    Jamieson

    If '13 was the worst ever, than '11 and this '15 group would be close. I liked Rubin after this tournament, but his career seems to have stalled out and entered a tail spin since 2017ish.

    31
    2017:

    Rated:

    Sargent: Future Starter
    Lennon:: Looked like MLS/cupcake guy, and injury depth.
    Ebobisse: I honestly don't know. I wasn't buying based upon what I saw in 2017, but I am curious. He's a much better forward prospect than just about any between 2009-2015, but he's also blatantly obviously inferior to Sargent, Soto, Weah and Llanez in terms of talent.

    Not Relevant:
    Sabbi: I'll definitely reconsider, as he had an interesting season this past year and looked dangerous in chunks.
    Saucedo
    Kunga

    37
    2019:

    Rated:

    Soto
    Weah
    Llanez

    Not Relevant
    Rennicks
    KDLF

    42

    Looking at all these forwards and wing/forwards over the years, the only guys I'd have had stock as high on as Soto would probably be GAM, Adu, Sargent and Altidore, w/Gam and Altidore having an advantage on the physical side of things, and Soto and Adu having the advantage on the technical skill side of things and Sargent probably being the best combination of the two approaches to playing the position of Forward.

    In terms of my own hit rate, I have some misses, but none strike me as big misses. I missed on Adu, so did everyone else. I missed on Quaranta, but I also didn't view him as transcendent like GAM or Sargent, I viewed him as a good prospect, and he did himself in to some degree w/addiction. Shea and Rubin were also misses, although again, in both instances, I saw the guys as very good (Rubin) and solid (Shea) prospects, not sure things in the way I viewed Sargent, Altidore, and Adu (Soto for me is probably just a touch below where I view those guys, depending upon the day).

    My other miss was Wood, who was a flat out miss. I understand that most are totally over him at this point, but I view him as the best over 23 forward in the program. Unlike Altidore, he produced in difficult circumstances and on the road and against quality and difficult competition. People love Altidore because he's more talented, but Altidore's track record at this point: zero major tournament goals (other than Gold Cup which isn't a major tournament) since the '09 Confederations Cup, zero goals all time versus Mexico/Costa Rica in WC Qualifying, and injuries knocking him out of WC '14 and Copa Centenario '16, make him the inferior option. Seems like Wood is on the outside looking in right now, which I view as a mistake. He's not at the level of Sargent, but after Sargent, there isn't another forward in the program I'd trust AT ALL in a game against Mexico, Costa Rica or Honduras more than Wood, and I can hear the laughter, but unlike Altidore, Wood has scored against Mexico and Costa Rica in major competition, and he scored on the road in the Hex in Central America, something Altidore rarely (if ever) does (I can't remember if he's scored on Honduras on the road, I know he hasn't against Costa Rica or Mexico, on the road or at home). I'll grant that Wood is in an awful place professionally right now, but unlike Altidore, I trust Wood to be able to finish, when gifted the chance by a guy like Pulisic, or Weah or whomever. Altidore I only trust at home against Patsies. That's it. Went off topic there.
     
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  11. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    Can you imagine losing Araujo because Tab decided to go with a hair brained idiotic experiment with a recovering McKenzie at RB against Qatar that nearly cost us advancement to the knockouts? That's a firing offense alone if it's to happen.
     
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  12. butters59

    butters59 Member+

    Feb 22, 2013
  13. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    My hope is that KDLF is young, playing up a group and not ready for this yet. It's definitely a painful thing to realize that if Llanez was getting regular minutes AND rated properly by TAB, we win the group, and have a much easier path to the semi-final/final than what we ended up with. Instead Llanez apparently wasn't match fit, so we had to repeatedly start an ineffective KDLF. Ran into the same problem w/Mendez and Ledezma not being able to go a full 90, one wonders what might have happened if we could have had Llanez, Ledezma for 90, and Durkin rightly on the bench where he belonged (and yes he was awful). I loved the guy, but I'm a HUGE doubter at this point and totally terrified that GGG loves his Trapp like ineptness on the defensive end, and promotes him to Trapp's understudy in costing us goals left, right and center, and again, I say this as a guy that was a buyer in Durkin stock. However, I react to real time data by changing my mind about guys and there was enough sampling of Durkin to say that he had a bad tournament, and his stock should be down period (and worst of all, his issues aren't as fixable, potentially as say, a Mendez. Mendez you need to turn into a 90 minute player, and get him to play on the defensive end as something other than a matador. How do you get Durkin to play as a 6 when he doesn't have any defensive bite at this level, or as an 8 when his supposedly crisp passing (that wasn't, at all, crisp, save for the Nigeria match), was a key element in both of our tournament losses and how does he improve on things like speed, and athleticism, and perhaps technique (which I thought was an asset but didn't look like it). Of course it was just a couple of games, very, very small sample size to be making final verdicts, it's just worrisome because issues with Ledezma, Mendez, and Llanez amongst others are much easier to address than more basic and fundamental issues like those exhibited by a Durkin or a non-prospect like Keita.
     
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  14. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    Man do we need something like a 10. Ledezma's development is a HUGE issue going forward. We have nobody to play that string pulling role right now, and I know the game's evolved to where that's less of a crucial factor, but having a guy that's comfortable on the ball, and not a total liability centrally is something we've been lacking for several years and it's been a key ingredient in the steep decline in the program. McKennie, Pomykal, and Adams aren't 10's. Ledezma could be. Fingers crossed, praying on bended knee that he can get healthy, and develop into that guy. Can you imagine an attack force (cheesy as that sounds) featuring Soto, Sargent, Llanez, Pulisic, Weah, w/some bite behind them in options like Adams, McKennie and Pomykal if we have Ledezma also available to pull the strings as a legit #10, or even more of a Reyna or Donovan role? Heaven.
     
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  15. zlebmada

    zlebmada Member

    United States
    Jan 16, 2018
    I can be sold on Soto. I do like a lot of things about him. He struck me as too clumsy in the buildup in this tournament, and basically a zero when it comes to creating his own shot. But you're right about his goals, they were all well-taken, especially the second against Nigeria. He's definitely the most likely NT regular of the ones I guessed wouldn't be NT regulars.
     
  16. don Lamb

    don Lamb Member+

    mine
    United States
    Aug 31, 2017
    #91 don Lamb, Jun 13, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
    The overall dearth of talent in those 42 names is sobering.

    I was pretty high on Salgado, but I also never rated Rubin. In any case, the attacking talent that the US has produced over the years has been utterly poor...... until recently -- the sudden change in quality is ********ing awesome to see.

    More to the point, I see Soto as a very good prospect, but I'd like to see him be more than simply a pure finisher.
     
  17. ielag

    ielag Member+

    Jul 20, 2010
    If Julian chose a country whose U20’s was far inferior to ours (and didn’t call him to their roster) because he didn’t play in the U20 WC means he’s going to choose Mexico regardless.

    I feel Berhalter/Kreis rate Julian very highly.
     
  18. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #93 xbhaskarx, Jun 13, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
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  19. Thundering165

    Thundering165 Member+

    North Carolina FC
    United States
    May 1, 2017
    Raleigh
    I'm not convinced we do, and I'm not convinced the USA is ever going to produce a good one. There's something about the positional ideal that seems to conflict with the way the game is played here. I think Efra could be a great traditional 10, but I also think your average USMNT fan would hate him for taking plays off and not defending and he won't play for us.

    Is it even necessary to have one? Many great teams around the world are playing without a string pulling midfielder. The Champions League final didn't feature one. The world is moving away from the midfield maestro towards a collection of midfielders than can do all aspects of the job competently.

    As the USA continues the painful growth process of completely changing our national style to a possession dominant proactive team, we are going to have more and more situations where we have to break down strong defensive sides. Traditionally a 10 has been important for possession dominant sides, but I don't see the USA developing one who is enough of a plus at that position to make up for the negatives elsewhere. We will have to rely on our well rounded midfielders to know how to make the key passes necessary in those situations.

    The USA has struggled to produce quality passing mids. Adams and McKennie, for as much as I love their game, are not great when it comes to consistently getting the ball to their teammates in tight situations which require great precision. Coming out of the back, with more space, they're solid with through balls and switches but when the game gets clogged in the opponent's final third it gets rough.

    The U20 squad was not much better. Ukraine beat us by cutting off the switch to the wings and forcing us to try to play through the middle which we failed to do. Pax and Mendez don't have the precision and decision making qualities to do what we need yet. Ledezma does but fitness is an issue. Weah is erratic and while he can sometimes make brilliant plays (France assist) he more often turns the ball over far more easily than he should.

    The USA does not necessarily need a 10, and cannot in all likelihood produce one, and that is ok. If we want to be a team that controls games and plays on our own terms, and wins major tournaments, we need all players to be able to play through a clogged final third. Until we get there expect more disappointments.
     
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  20. Dave Marino-Nachison

    Jun 9, 1999
    It's reasonable to wonder what kind of player Soto turns out to be. He's clearly not a natural holdup type, though that's generally uncommon anyhow. (Though Sargent, who does lots of other things well too, seems like a possibility here.)

    He seems willing to take contact even if he's not a ready-made back-to-goal player. He presses.

    Doesn't look like someone to beat a defender in a straight up, 1-v-1, a la Weah. Appears to have good speed but I don't know if he's someone you just leave high and launch balls to, akin perhaps to Morris. Also not sure if he's a combiner type who can play the killer return pass.

    He plays with his head up and seems to know what's going on around him. His finishing instincts seem very good. In the U20 tournament we didn't see him get many chances to put in crosses from the run of play -- but he scored goals anyway.

    A guy who can find space in the box, finish team moves in transition, and stay onside, has a shot at being useful, and if he can do more than that, very good indeed. I suspect there is very much a right and wrong way to deploy him -- some teams will get it right, others won't.
     
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  21. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    I'm with you on Ledezma. He wasn't on this roster, but I think Aaronsen is a comparable player. Mendez can also hit that pass. We saw Ledezma do it on the run, Mendez do it on the half turn. I have not seen Ledezma shoot except the one he pulled wide against France. Mendez might have the best left foot in the entire USA player pool. Aaronsen is not individually goal dangerous.

    Mendez has the mentality, I believe. He has that Pulisic/Adams mentality to work everyday to get better. I know this country loves guys that run hard all over and hype trains go in both directions.

    I don't know if Ledezma has that same mentality, I would think so given his career choices. Aaronsen I'm just not familiar with in that way.

    I think all three of these guys, Mendez, Ledezma, Aaronsen, have a better shot to start at the 10 for the US in 2022 than Djorde.
     
  22. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    What part of Soto's game does he do less well than Zardes?
     
  23. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Things Soto does that I'm impressed with:

    1. Time his runs to stay onside yet receive the ball two yards or more ahead of the CB he ran off of
    2. Dead calm 1 v 1 with the goal keeper. A little revisionist history in some places calling Soto's four goals "poacher goals". Well, he faked out the Nigeria keeper pretty good, that was no tap in. He waited to the last second, twice, to beat the France keeper to either side. It takes balls to wait as long as he did to get a Serie A starting keeper to commit.

    A "poach" goal is a goal without the keeper in front of you and never includes a flying header off of a corner.

    Compare his timing or runs behind to, ah, Altidore. Compare his 1 v 1 with the keeper deftness with Weah. There are holes, but some things can be taught and some things not.

    Alex Morgan is one of the greatest strikers of all time but she cannot stay onside and she mostly just shoots hard when left with the keeper.
     
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  24. Dave Marino-Nachison

    Jun 9, 1999
    At some point (like, say, when you're trying to win multiple World Cup knockout games, when you can safely assume every team you're playing is as good as you or better, with high levels of organization and dependable goalkeeping) the question becomes "What does an attacker do that will make a highly competent defender worry?"

    Even if the answer is "nothing in particular" the player can still contribute at a high level. But that requires more from teammates and the gameplan. It's all tradeoffs. A more "electric" player may be less dependable in other situations.
     
  25. don Lamb

    don Lamb Member+

    mine
    United States
    Aug 31, 2017
    The obvious answer is speed, but the larger point is that Zardes should not be the bar we are setting for our strikers.
     

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