2019 Season

Discussion in 'Women's College' started by Val1, Aug 31, 2019.

  1. Val1

    Val1 Member+

    Arsenal
    Mar 12, 2004
    MD's Eastern Shore
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    How about a single thread for the season overall?

    I'm not a fan of hydration breaks in the game. Well, in the college game certainly. We have pretty much unlimited substitution, so this isn't like the professional game.

    One of my favorite distinctives of soccer is that once game time arrives, it's pretty much a player's game: very limited subbing, huge field and small coaching box (hard for coaches to communicate with players), no timeouts...

    This changes that and effectively makes the game 4 quarters as opposed to 2 halves. Maybe if the water was dispensed on the far sideline it would be more palatable to me.
     
    blissett repped this.
  2. ping

    ping New Member

    Dec 7, 2009
    Hydration breaks are not much of an issue for me. I understand the criticism but I don't think it changes the game much considering the debatable substitution rules. They probably won't factor into play much in the latter portion of the season other than in the deep south. I guess if I was a southern team and wanted a home field advantage I wouldn't like the change.
     
  3. ping

    ping New Member

    Dec 7, 2009
    #3 ping, Aug 31, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2019
    I've been disappointed with the quality of play from so many different teams, top and bottom. Are D1 women so technically deficient they have to wack the ball back and forth? Is there some kind of competition to see who can kick the ball in the air the most and win the most headers? At times, especially watching the mid level teams, it feels like I am watching rec kids play. I guess my initial concept of a D1 player was very wrong. The top teams surely possess the ball better but even they struggle to connect passes to the correct foot at the correct time. Many are "national team" players. Seems so odd.

    Refereeing is another puzzling thing for me in D1 women's soccer. When a player football tackles an opponent with two hands from behind like a linebacker the rules state that should be a yellow card. Not in the games I've seen. A foul might be called but refs appear afraid to actually caution women. Then the announcers joke about a 2 point wrestling take down. At least I know in those instances I am not the only one seeing bad refereeing.

    I watched a men's game last night and there were 2 yellow cards in the first 20 minutes. I watch women maul each other, go in studs up, tackle from behind, you name it, no card. Very weird. Surprised there aren't more concussions and injuries with many girls heading/tackling their opponents dangerously from behind. Clear fouls committed and the ref yells play on. The safety of players at any level should be a priority for refs. I really believe the majority don't know what the game looks like at a high level because they don't watch high level games. I bet the same can be said of many of these players.

    In all fairness I did see a game recently where a keeper took out a player 1v1 and the ref gave her a red card. I was shocked, not because of the call, but because he had the courage to do it. My sample size is small. I'll watch more but these were my initial impressions.
     
  4. Enzo the Prince

    Sep 9, 2007
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    #4 Enzo the Prince, Aug 31, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2019
    I'm not the biggest fan either, but you can't have all 10 outfield players subbing out for water. Especially not in the first half, when there's no re-entry. A 1 o'clock kickoff in Clemson or Miami or Atlanta at this time of year, it's a player safety issue, end of story.
     
  5. Enzo the Prince

    Sep 9, 2007
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    It sounds like you enjoy literally nothing about college soccer, so why watch? Just to come here and tell us how it doesn't meet your standards?
     
    ping repped this.
  6. ping

    ping New Member

    Dec 7, 2009
    Pushing for higher standards is a far cry from "enjoy(ing) literally nothing about college soccer." The world standard is higher. I am not the only person to ever express that. College coaches discuss the matter. There is no reason why some of these exceptional athletes can't play at a higher level. There is no reason why refs can't improve their performances. That won't happen if we shut down any discussions.

    On a side note, I posted something positive about Richmond a short time after that post. I celebrated their success and style of play. I guess you missed that.

    Everything here is an opinion. I thought this was a discussion board.
     
  7. Enzo the Prince

    Sep 9, 2007
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    The world standard of amateur women's soccer is higher? Are you sure about that?
     
  8. cpthomas

    cpthomas BigSoccer Supporter

    Portland Thorns
    United States
    Jan 10, 2008
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #8 cpthomas, Aug 31, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2019
    I don't think there's anything wrong with Ping's points, they're all topics that have been under discussion for quite a while.

    On the issue of the quality of college soccer: After spending a month in France watching the US women play most of the top teams in the world, and after watching a good number of the best NWSL teams play this year, I think it's emphasized to me the big gap between college play, then professional play, then national team play. It hasn't been this obvious to me in the past, but I don't think it's due to a decline in college soccer, rather it's due to the many more opportunities to watch really mature women's teams play. Even with that, however, I think that on a world stage, compared to what other countries have in their third tier down -- and an amateur tier at that, women's college soccer, especially among the top 100 teams or so, is pretty far ahead of the rest of the world.

    On the issue of water breaks, I disagree with Ping. The rules on water breaks are well defined and strictly for player safety. And they are applied at all levels -- including in the Women's World Cup, if I recall correctly.

    On referees, there's lots of room for discussion. There are good ones, there are poor ones. The best get jobs at the World Cup level, the next in the professional leagues, the next in the US in college games, and from there down as the level of seriousness decreases. That's always going to be true. I think it's possible that the level of refereeing in the US is a little deficient for historical reasons, but that probably will get better as new generations of former players become refs. And ... there was plenty of outrage about the refereeing at the World Cup, so this isn't a US-only situation. And ... refs may be poor on occasions, but fans make poor refs far more frequently and very few are qualified to be critics.
     
  9. Enzo the Prince

    Sep 9, 2007
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    #9 Enzo the Prince, Aug 31, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2019
    Indeed. But are thirty regular users of this message board going to change anything by tut-tutting at the level? Get a job in grassroots coaching if you want to make a difference.

    And I DO think there's something wrong with saying things like "I bet they don't watch high level soccer." I know for a fact many do, but that's beside the point. It's a snobby thing to say about college kids, and I don't think we should be discussing what these kids do or do not do in their private lives.

    The main thing to keep in mind about the level of college soccer is that there are over 300 teams. There's just no way any league in any country could fill 300+ teams with top-quality players. Imagine if there were 30 teams TOTAL in the entire country. The level would be incredible.

    While I'm at it: Duke 3 Santa Clara 2 (OT). Fantastic game.
     
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  10. cpthomas

    cpthomas BigSoccer Supporter

    Portland Thorns
    United States
    Jan 10, 2008
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Good points. And I agree with something you imply, which is that critics on these boards tend to make overstatements to support their positions. That's too bad, beause although they appear not to realize it -- or care, it impairs their credibility. Maybe they're just venting ....
     
  11. ping

    ping New Member

    Dec 7, 2009
    Is Anson Dorrance generally recognized as a womens' college coaching authority? Is he "snobby?" What does he say the standard should be?

    A: It seems to me that relying on size and athleticism to win seems to be an even bigger problem on the girls' side than on the boys' …

    ANSON DORRANCE: Yes, it is. And a part of the reason is the girls don't watch the game. And honestly not too many of their coaches do either.

    And the game they should watch, in all deference to where ever our top women's teams are, is the men's game. The men's game is the university for the women's game. We should be studying the men's game the way anyone would study at an institution of higher learning.

    We've got to learn from the men and part of the way to learn is to watch. But we don't and as a result we lack sophistication, we lack problem-solving, we lack ideas in the final third.

    And the way we survive in the women's game is with raw athleticism. We overpower another player and blow it into the goal -- and that's not going to cut it anymore.
     
  12. ping

    ping New Member

    Dec 7, 2009
    #12 ping, Aug 31, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2019
    I had no issue with water breaks. The initial poster didn't like them.
     
  13. ping

    ping New Member

    Dec 7, 2009
    I didn't know the board was exclusive to "thirty regular users." I didn't come in calling people names. I didn't specifically name anyone. I made general observations that (some of which) Anson Dorrance has made publicly in the past. This wasn't my only post.

    I made my opinions known. I noted my reference was limited. I am ok if someone disagrees. To imply I did something egregious seems way over the top to me, but again, that is just my opinion.

    If name calling and personal attacks are the norm here then I'll adjust going forward.
     
  14. Soccerhunter

    Soccerhunter Member+

    Sep 12, 2009
    #14 Soccerhunter, Aug 31, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2019
    The women's college game is what it is and there is nothing that I can think of that will make it change overnight (especially by complaining that it "should" be at a higher level.) The point is well made that if you have over 1,000 women's college teams (320 or so in Division I) there is just no way that more than a fraction of them will be playing with the insight, and technical and tactical skill of the top men's teams. So I say, get used to the natural (culturally slow) pace of change and get over this carping as though the women's college game is failing us disappointed fans.

    I believe that many of us soccer fans enjoy watching the game at all levels. I know many experienced soccer fans who will stop to take time to watch a rec game with 10 year olds, or watch girls high school games, college games, or pro games. All of them have a distinctive level of play that can be enjoyed and there is great satisfaction in appreciating that players are doing the best they can given their development thus far in their soccer careers. And this includes college teams!

    For me the argument is like child rearing. What parent would disparage the skill level and knowledge level of a three year old because he or she is not playing like a 6 year old or 18 year old? So why then would we then disparage college teams and coaches of 18-21 year olds for not playing to a higher standard than they can presently do by trying their best?

    I'll add that the level of women's soccer at ALL LEVELS is improving all the time. To me there clearly has been tremendous progress in the last 60 years. America has lead the world in this improvement, (although now the European clubs and national teams are catching up and may surpass the US.) We should be proud of the level of women's soccer has achieved even as we naturally expect that improvement will continue as the USSF and other organizations are actively trying to do just that. ...But it won't happen overnight.
     
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  15. Number007

    Number007 Member

    Santos FC
    Brazil
    Aug 29, 2018
     
  16. Number007

    Number007 Member

    Santos FC
    Brazil
    Aug 29, 2018
    "I'll add that the level of women's soccer at ALL LEVELS is improving all the time. To me there clearly has been tremendous progress in the last 60 years. America has lead the world in this improvement, (although now the European clubs and national teams are catching up and may surpass the US.) We should be proud of the level of women's soccer has achieved even as we naturally expect that improvement will continue as the USSF and other organizations are actively trying to do just that. ...But it won't happen overnight "

    dont agree with most of this. I dont think it is improving at all levels. America has spent the most money, I dont think that has beens spent well OR spent on improving the game at all levels. Also not convinced the USSF is trying to do that .
     
  17. devad

    devad Member

    Nov 18, 2012
    The biggest issue is preseason! Arsenal had 37 days of preseason and 6 preseason matches to sort out issues. College coaches have 10 days and a max of 2 preseason friendlies. Surely you see the difference. Comparing the 2 shows you are either too lazy to have an informed thought or too arrogant to understand limitations in development.

    And I love the college soccer sucks people. It has quite literally produced the last 2 World Champions. College coaches are now judged on wins and losses. If they don't win they get fired. And with only 17-19 regular season matches and an RPI that isn't designed for that small of a sample size, you get these early season rough edges.
     
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  18. ping

    ping New Member

    Dec 7, 2009
    devad,
    Those are great points. Having a team play well with 10 days of practice is beyond difficult. Appreciate the perspective! I look forward to seeing teams progress throughout the season.
     
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  19. Eddie K

    Eddie K Member

    May 5, 2007
    About the development of college soccer, there's not much argument. Just for discussion, I'd propose the same college team in 2019 is better by 2+ goals than it was 10 years ago, and 2 more goals 10 years before that (in 1999). In 1989, most colleges we talk about here didn't even have women's soccer! Back then, you were lucky to record games with a VHS tape that was barely watchable in very low def. Now, folks complain about the quality of the HD live stream (or paying for it) and how fast the highlights get posted! (Okay, the ACCN thing is stupid and worth complaining about).

    I think I could make a good argument that we are OVER developing players in the US. Certainly, over-training them. Everyone gets in each other's way in US soccer with "elite this" and "premier that" and thinks they can do it best (and milk the youth soccer cow).

    Sorry if this was off topic but
    College soccer is as good as it's ever been. Not perfect but good. Quality soccer, superior athletes, great facilities, good accessibility, competitive parity, and so very worth watching. If you don't agree somewhat, why are you still reading this?
     
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  20. ping

    ping New Member

    Dec 7, 2009
    devad- "Comparing the 2 shows you are either too lazy to have an informed thought or too arrogant to understand limitations in development."

    Why ruin a solid post with name calling and a personal attack? The first part of your post was informative. The second part digressed.

    Dorrance said,
    "We've got to learn from the men and part of the way to learn is to watch. But we don't and as a result we lack sophistication, we lack problem-solving, we lack ideas in the final third"

    I agree. Does anyone disagree with this?

    Everyone knows an 18 year old female amateur won't play like a 20+ year old male professional due to various factors. Nobody is arguing that.

    I compare 18 year old amateurs to 12 year old boys at academies across the globe who are trying to imitate the professional game as Dorrance suggests. I think D1 college players are capable and should be able to play like these 12 year old boys (WHO ARE ALSO STRIVING to play to the world standard.) Some women college players do, there is no real argument that most do not. Instead we create different standards(some would say excuses) for these women.

    That was my initial observation and one that college coaches know and express privately. ONLY someone like Dorrance can get away with expressing anything like that publicly as a coach. I'm glad he did because sugar coating how great things are only breeds mediocrity. It needs to be said and said often.

    Who is to blame can be debated. Dorrance goes on and actually blames coaches for not watching. I'll add the refs. Look forward to discussing that in another post.

    I agree the game has improved and is improving. It should, we've poured billions into girls/womens soccer at every level over the decades while other countries haven't.

    There are very good youth teams and players out there which is why I was so surprised at what initially appeared to be the standard after watching several games online. I was simply surprised the quality of play was so poor in so many games. There are pockets of excellence and quality that should be highlighted and celebrated and I don't think it is only the power 5 schools. I actually posted a positive report on Richmond (a very low tier D1 program), their quality of play, and the result they got.

    There will always be people on all sides of issues. There are no improvements and exchanges of ideas if people start name calling when someone suggests the quality can be improved by watching the global standard.

    Maybe you all have it all figured out? Maybe you know more than Dorrance? I doubt it because he doesn't know it all.

    Is this a parent forum or a women's soccer discussion forum?

    I've seen no logical rebuttal to the argument Dorrance and I made about watching the global standard other than twisting this whole thing to "disparaging" people "trying their best" and rubbish like that. Then others rep that garbage? That is ridiculous.

    I'll continue to echo Dorrance and encourage players, fans, refs, coaches at all levels to watch the global standard as it also continues to evolve and improve. I'll enjoy the quality D1 performances and abhor the terrible performances.

    Start a name calling post if you want to cast aspersions. I may jump in to that too later.
     
    Number007 repped this.
  21. Soccerhunter

    Soccerhunter Member+

    Sep 12, 2009
    Dorrance has been talking about the importance of watching pro men's soccer for a few years now. And his advocacy of that activity for women players is ironic in that he can't seem to get even his own players to do as much of that as he would like.

    I say in my post above that the slow pace of improvement is in part a cultural fact. Culturally, is seems to be the case that a comparative few women spend anywhere near the time watching sports as men do. Of course there are the exceptions who do, but in general, I think that women's culture is more social than men's and time spent watching an athletic game on the screen just isn't as interesting as activities that have a social/emotional context of some kind. If a screen it must be, watching humans interacting socially in movies, soap operas, or even reality TV would seem to be naturally more attractive and fulfilling to women than men's sports. Away from the screen, it is a fact that as a group, women read way more fiction than men and it probably is because of its social and emotional content.

    If I am right about these differences in our culture, it does not surprise that comparatively few women soccer athletes are going to spend their hours watching top tier men's soccer. Except with the very few at the top, progress will continue to be slower than many of us would like.

    Dorrance literally "wrote the book" on the differences in coaching men and women soccer players and his book (The Vision of a Champion) continues in demand and is now in its 7th? printing in 2019....but the watching of top men's soccer as a training strategy is apparently not working too well. Yes, ironic.
     
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  22. ping

    ping New Member

    Dec 7, 2009
    First half of penn vs Towson is quality. Both teams knocking the ball around. Penn scoring advantage but plenty of composure by both teams and enjoyable to watch. Those that say there are positives make a good point.
     
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  23. L'orange

    L'orange Member+

    Ajax
    Netherlands
    Jul 20, 2017
    The Univ. of Richmond is wonderful--but the soccer team plays on the school's turf football field, with all the confusing lines, and that is not wonderful!
     
  24. ping

    ping New Member

    Dec 7, 2009
    They don't anymore. They now play on grass beside the field hockey practice field. No more football field soccer which is nice. Seating and stuff is pretty bad with some weak bleachers but the players are on grass and they say the area will be improved with time but don't know how true that is.
     
  25. HeadSpun

    HeadSpun Member

    Nov 14, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Is there a WSOC D1 comprehensive schedule to access anywhere? All White Kit had previously compiled one each year, but I haven't seen it for the last few years. I'd be great to have one schedule to browse showing all of the WSOC D1 matches by date.

    Does anyone know of one that is accessible, or would like to put one out there?
     

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