PBP: 2019 NWSL Week 20 Discussion

Discussion in 'NWSL' started by Semblance17, Sep 6, 2019.

  1. Semblance17

    Semblance17 Member+

    United States
    Apr 27, 2013
    Lighthouse Point, FL
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #51 Semblance17, Sep 9, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
    Against my better judgment I am going to put in my own 2¢* and voice my own personal opinion that neither of these comments is entirely fair.

    *It's probably not even worth that much.

    Although I like a lot of players on Portland's squad and the spirit of their fans, I'll admit that the team has frequently disappointed me in recent years by resorting to physicality [even by-the-book, allowable physicality] to gain/keep the upper hand in certain matches. I was disappointed especially because I believe that in most cases they had the talent on their roster to achieve the same ends using smarter, safer tactics and techniques. Even Portland's most hard-core fans acknowledge that the 2017 Championship wasn't a distinctly compelling or satisfying victory. It wasn't the prettiest game to watch by any stretch of the imagination. And although the physicality in that match wasn't by any means 100% one-sided, it may have been the difference-maker for Portland, as it likely has been in a number of key matches over the past [rounding up] seven seasons.

    However, to call the team outright thugs going all the way back to their inception is, to me, to suggest that dirty, dangerous play is the primary or perhaps sole defining characteristic of the franchise throughout its history. I think it's a bit of a stretch to posit that the team simply muscled their way from opening day to the Championship game in 3 out 6 seasons, to the playoff rounds in 5 out of 6 seasons, and to an NWSL shield to boot. Even assuming the most lax officiating in the world wouldn't make that a highly plausible theory in my mind. Of course I recognize the argument that the system, in failing to adequately punish overly physical play, may encourage it. But over time I believe, as naive as it may sound, that the nature of the sport rewards teams that play better rather than tougher.

    To suggest that people who vocalize what are often very legitimate grievances about the Thorns' reliance upon physical play are motivated to make such comments by mere jealousy of the franchise I consider to be equally unreasonable. That being said, as a general policy it is probably wise to never assume the complete objectivity of anyone, including me. :cautious:
     
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  2. SiberianThunderT

    Sep 21, 2008
    DC
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    I didn't mean to suggest it was *the* reason for their doing well - they certainly have always had the talent to do well. Which is why their frequent over-physicality is all the more disappointing - they don't need to be doing it by any stretch. And yet it's been present in a good chunk of their games every season, even through multiple coaches. The fact that one of the best teams in the league often is one of, if not the most physical also doesn't help the league's image worldwide. I'm not sure why the physicality happens, but I wish it wouldn't.

    I mean, half-wish it wouldn't. Between the physicality of the team and the air of entitlement/superiority that sometimes comes from Portland fans on social media, it's somewhat nice to have a villain in NWSL.
     
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  3. Semblance17

    Semblance17 Member+

    United States
    Apr 27, 2013
    Lighthouse Point, FL
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #53 Semblance17, Sep 9, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
    Fair enough.

     
  4. MRAD12

    MRAD12 Member+

    Jun 10, 2004
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    In my humble opinion,

    Portland, the team, their fans, the coaching staff have earned the right to be "cocky" or confident, if you will. They have won titles, they have broken attendance records, their fans travel better than some teams put through the gate on home game and they are, IMO the most wanted team destination to be for world class players (I don't care about Lyon or PSG or what have you).

    I was at the Championship game in Orlando a couple of years ago when Portland won, and I don't think they played dirty at all. Sure there were a few card-worthy moments but they played what the ref gave them.
    In the men's game that type of play would be no big deal at all.

    As a Red Stars fan, I love my team, but I wish we had the boldness, the confidence, head held high nuance that Portland has in Chicago and that is not out of jealousy, but out of admiration.
     
  5. cpthomas

    cpthomas BigSoccer Supporter

    Portland Thorns
    United States
    Jan 10, 2008
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I looked at the foul and card stats over the last 4 years, which is what the NWSL currently has easily available on line. Indeed, the Thorns are one of the most physical teams.

    Unfortunately, the NWSL doesn't report stats on fouls suffered. I have the feeling that the Thorns aren't fouling any more than they're being fouled, but it's just a feeling since I don't know where to find fouls suffered information or even if that information is available. But, in any event, they are physical.
     
  6. cpthomas

    cpthomas BigSoccer Supporter

    Portland Thorns
    United States
    Jan 10, 2008
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    After the preceding post, I realized that if I would go back through all Thorns match box scores, I could find out how many fouls their opponents committed and thus could generate fouls suffered data. It's a pretty tedious process, but I did it for this season through the Thorns' last game on 9/6.

    Over that period, here are the data:

    Fouls Committed

    Thorns 177 (average 8.85)
    Opponents 234 (average 11.7)
    Yellow Cards

    Thorns 13
    Opponents 26
    Red Cards

    Thorns 1
    Opponents 1
    So, the Thorns this year are being fouled about 1 1/3 times the amount they're fouling and are experiencing serious fouls at twice the rate they're committing serious fouls.
     
  7. SiberianThunderT

    Sep 21, 2008
    DC
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    To be fair, most opposing teams and fans will usually say the refs don't make as many calls against Portland as they maybe should, letting things escalate until the opposition gets called for something, so take that for what you will.
     
  8. cpthomas

    cpthomas BigSoccer Supporter

    Portland Thorns
    United States
    Jan 10, 2008
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, you know me, I have more faith in actual data than I do in subjective human perceptions. However, I haven't gone through the numbers yet for 2016-2018, so who knows what they'll show. But, I will accept whatever they show, as compared to "most opposing teams and fans" who apparently won't accept what they show unless they agree with their preconceived notions.:):geek:
     
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  9. cpthomas

    cpthomas BigSoccer Supporter

    Portland Thorns
    United States
    Jan 10, 2008
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    For the 2018 season, here are the data on fouls committed and suffered by the Thorns:

    Fouls Committed

    Thorns 274 (average 10.5)
    Opponents 285 (average 11.0)​

    Yellow Cards

    Thorns 24
    Opponents 37​

    Red Cards

    Thorns 0
    Opponents 0​

    So for 2018 the Thorns were slightly out-fouled by their opponents and significantly out-fouled by serious fouls. Just not as much as so far in 2019.
     
  10. cpthomas

    cpthomas BigSoccer Supporter

    Portland Thorns
    United States
    Jan 10, 2008
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    For the 2017 season, here are the data on fouls committed and suffered by the Thorns:

    Fouls Committed

    Thorns 295 (average 11.3)
    Opponents 284 (average 10.9)

    Yellow Cards

    Thorns 33
    Opponents 37

    Red Cards

    Thorns 0
    Opponents 3

    So for 2017 the Thorns slightly out-fouled their opponents but had fewer serious fouls.
     
  11. cpthomas

    cpthomas BigSoccer Supporter

    Portland Thorns
    United States
    Jan 10, 2008
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    For the 2016 season, here are the data on fouls committed and suffered by the Thorns:

    Fouls Committed

    Thorns 232 (average 11.6)
    Opponents 204 (average 10.2)

    Yellow Cards

    Thorns 23
    Opponents 26

    Red Cards

    Thorns 0
    Opponents 1

    So for 2016 the Thorns out-fouled their opponents but had fewer serious fouls.
     
  12. cpthomas

    cpthomas BigSoccer Supporter

    Portland Thorns
    United States
    Jan 10, 2008
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And finally, totals for the four seasons for which the NWSL has on-line schedules and thus provides the ability to determine fouls by and against the Thorns. (The 2019 season numbers that went into this are through September 10.)

    Fouls:

    Thorns: 978
    Opponents: 1007
    Yellow cards:

    Thorns: 93
    Opponents: 126
    Red cards:

    Thorns: 1
    Opponents: 5
    So, the Thorns are being slightly outfouled by their opponents. Their opponents are committing significantly more serious fouls than the Thorns.
     
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  13. CoachJon

    CoachJon Member+

    Feb 1, 2006
    Rochester, NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

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