PBP: 2019 FIFA U-20 Cup Group Stage: USA vs Nigeria 5/27

Discussion in 'Youth National Teams' started by Sebsasour, May 25, 2019.

  1. Lookingforleftbacks

    Galaxy
    United States
    Dec 17, 2016
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I’ve been saying that since the tournament started. This has the makings of a Trinidad repeat written all over it. Players who think they will cruise to victory but are exhausted and can’t use talent alone to get by. Thursday will be the third game in 7 days. Pomykal, Keita, Dest, Scott, and Durkin have all played 180 minutes so far.
     
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  2. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #402 adam tash, May 28, 2019
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
    talent and success are not the same thing....

    People with more talent often have less success than those who are not as gifted....and it isn't always about the people involved, either....there's a lot of luck and "right place, right time" at play many times....

    Pomykal's future is looking a lot better than Carleton's at the moment - but even if you are right about how both careers will play out - it wouldn't really change who is the more talented player right now.

    If Carleton was on a team that playeed youth like FCD - he'd probably be playing a lot in MLS this season. But he's not. If pomykal was on a bigger club like Bournemouth for example he'd be playing in the reserves and off most people's radars....

    just because individuals do indeed solely benefit from the success they achieve doesn't mean that individuals solely create the success that they do achieve.

    Its like you are saying pomykals career is going to turn out better so that means he has more talent but those are 2 separate issues.

    that said, even if carelton does have more talent than some players on the team doesn't mean he should definitely be on the roster...maybe his mentality is immature as de boer has alluded to and that might be a legit reason to keep him off....(although I think based on how some of the players have played, that he would've been a bonus to the team if he had been included...as well as some other players who were left off)
     
  3. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The only reason to do it like he has ids if the squad is truly only 12 deep ...

    but he said there were 4-5 players who deserved to be there who were left off....so the team doesnt seem to be that shallow....then again real and mckenzie didnt seem to be up to the level of the rest of the squad when they came on.....
     
  4. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    Club situations factors in a lot to who makes which rosters and even whose career progresses at what rate. That was not the point. Better is different from playing the most minutes or getting the most hype.

    I think we are suffering in this tournament with goals due to Atlanta's decisions. We've gotten 0G, 2A in what amounts to 630 minutes in the positions Carleton plays. He has the best end product in the youth player pool among the attacking mids, IMO. I see a lot of praise for Pomykal, Mendez, Weah, de la Fuente. None have played all too bad and all are decent prospects, but you'd like to see one of these players dominate this tournament, and be one of the best attacking mids in the tournament. I thought that was an area we would lack in this tournament. We are missing the two best end-product attacking mids (Carleton and Amon), and the form of these others in that area has not been good recently.

    This is something we often lack in youth tournaments. Some tournaments we have one of the best keepers in the tournament or CB's or strikers, but I can't remember us having very many of the best attacking mids who is producing goals and assists at rates among the best in the tournament. The only one I can remember in any of these FIFA tournaments in the last 10 years is Carleton at the U-17 WC in 2017.
     
  5. Lookingforleftbacks

    Galaxy
    United States
    Dec 17, 2016
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I’m hoping to see Ledezma, Araujo, Ochoa, and Cerrillo. There’s really no reason not to at this point.
     
  6. frankburgers

    frankburgers Member+

    May 31, 2016
    take it to the carleton thread
     
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  7. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    I don't buy this idea that Pomykal has shown such great improvements. This is the same thing Dallas claimed with Cannon. They tried to sell everyone that Cannon in a two month offseason instantly became one of the best fullbacks in MLS.

    The difference likely comes from the expectation of a regular role. With Cannon, he was going to be the starting RB. With Pomykal, at worst he'd play regular backup minutes. I actually have not been very impressed with Pomykal's play this season for club or country. We keep hearing how good his defense and work rate is, but at youth level, he was great offensively. He'd score plenty of goals and assist plenty of goals. This season, he's more timid offensively and makes more conservative decisions in the final third. I don't see the point of praising him for his lack of mistakes or efficient passes. He's always been capable of that, but what made him so good was that he was capable of that and capable of also producing goals and assists at a high rate.

    Now some are trying to turn this kid into a #8. If thats his role, I'm not sure his ceiling is all that high. He's not bad defensively, but IMO no better than average production you'd get from him in that role. He's not a bad athlete, but not a great one either. I think he could carve out a good career as a box to box midfielder, but a year or two ago, he was regarded as a pure 10 with creativity, end product, a lot of talent and an all-around game from the position. I don't know why there's an insistence to praise this development in his game. I think its very bad for his career potential, and he has a much lower ceiling, if this continues. Some of that likely falls on the player and some falls on the team. FC Dallas has played a very negative style of football under Luchi Gonzalez (that was a hallmark of his teams with the academy). I think Pomykal should be used in a role like Diaz was.
     
  8. Runhard

    Runhard Member+

    Barcelona
    United States
    Jul 5, 2018
    Funny you mentioned Luchi style. He gets this reputation as playing "luchi ball" or whatever that is and it really means his defenders pass it around the back and hoof it long when under pressure. It was funny to watch media and internet types gush about some of the centerbacks at FCD Academy, some still there, that are mainly whack it long type of guys.

    Time will tell on all these kids and I predict when Pax gets out of FCD he will flourish even more in a truly competitive soccer environment. Just ask guys like Adams, seargeant, Pulisic, Mckennie what it means to move overseas.
     
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  9. frankburgers

    frankburgers Member+

    May 31, 2016
    lol
     
  10. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    I think that may be a big part of it. I think Luchi Gonzalez is a bad coach tactically. His teams play bad football, and this is now at two levels they play this way. I do think his appointment to the first team manager job is good for these kids because I think Cerrillo, Pomykal, Ferreira are going to get exposure they might've not otherwise gotten had Dallas kept Pareja or hired a different coach. If they can get a lot of playing time and get to Europe quickly that might benefit them.

    There are plenty of players who don't show good development in their games but get transfers to Europe due to playing time and hype. I think thats the way its trending with Pomykal. It's almost the opposite of what it was prior to this season. He was one of the most talented players in the system, yet no one talked about him. Playing time, hype (combined with bad development of his skillset) is getting him more exposure than he had gotten when he was playing a better style and playing better football, IMO.
     
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  11. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I see Weah as a tweener which actually works well if the other winger is more of a creator. The second wing (Weah) can thing be a second forward when the creator sends in passes or crosses. That Weah makes great, pacy runs into space also helps the team from getting depressed into small spaces by not having anyone that stretches the defense. Weah had two good chances on goal and had he scored either or both we'd all be talking about what a beast he was. The same thing happened with Soto. He did make two goals and so instead of how he doesn't gel with this bunch he's now considered to be integral going forward.
     
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  12. didi11

    didi11 Member

    Dec 13, 2013
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    In terms of soccer iq, “I think” Pomykal is much better than Carleton, it’s not close. The same for the first touch. I know some people may show me a bunch of highlights of Carleton, trust me I have seen all of them. Doing a hot dog control move, which he likes to do, (super easy, btw, if you have played soccer half seriously) is not the same as having an excellent first touch. Making some good passes is not equivalent to having a super soccer iq, even though it’s part of it. Carleton is pretty good, but Pomykal is better.

    Pomykal (at Dallas Texans) and Cannon (at Solar) were made products already. FCD just brought them over. I thought Cannon’s defensive ability got worse, he used to read the game and opponents so well
     
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  13. bct81

    bct81 Member+

    multiple (DC United, Dortmund, Arsenal, Leeds....)
    United States
    Mar 17, 2007
    moving around the US every few years ....
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    up to this point Pomykal has shown a great ability to make good passes, good movement, and maintain possession under pressure from multiple players .... sounds like Ramos has made the call to depend on Pomykal.
     
  14. didi11

    didi11 Member

    Dec 13, 2013
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    #414 didi11, May 28, 2019
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
    One small thing about Pomykal is actually quite revealing about US Soccer and especially how we view young players.
    If anyone has free time, please check Youth soccer player rankings of Class 2018 (I think, since he’s December 1999), starting from U14 until U17-8.
    Say Top Drawer, If my memory serves me well, he was either not ranked at all in the top 150 (!) or very low (around 90th) the first 2-3 years. Only when he got called up to the YNT (U18?), did his rank started to go up.

    I don’t think he was called up for U14-16 (maybe he went to a camp or two, definitely never on any roster of YNT tournament. One big thing against him: he was always tiny.
     
  15. Dirt McGirt

    Dirt McGirt Member+

    Jun 20, 2005
    Phoenix, AZ
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Always on message.
     
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  16. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    What is the message and why are you always so concerned with everything I say?
     
  17. Dirt McGirt

    Dirt McGirt Member+

    Jun 20, 2005
    Phoenix, AZ
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Andrew Carlton. I'm not concerned, I'm actually impressed with your consistency.
     
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  18. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    I commented on the posts I wanted to comment on. I didn't respond to your post. I don't have interest in that. You picked out the one post of mine that deals with a player that you have something against, and you constantly talk about in negative terms. I'm not going to discuss this any further with you. You are here to cause conflict.
     
  19. Dirt McGirt

    Dirt McGirt Member+

    Jun 20, 2005
    Phoenix, AZ
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No conflict here. I like your tenacity when it comes to Carlton. I don't agree, but I appreciate your efforts.
     
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  20. luvdagame

    luvdagame Member+

    Jul 6, 2000
    #420 luvdagame, May 28, 2019
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
    all the boys did well. tho dest needs to raise his level or be replaced by araujo.

    haven't you already won this argument?

    won't "atlanta held carleton back" still be your trump card when bello or pomykal (or some other player carleton's been compared to) is helping us win the hex/win our wc group/make the semis at the wc/win the wc while carleton is not doing as well?

    ...not predicting that he won't do as well btw, i believe he's a very good player - just apparently not ussoccer97531 good.
     
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  21. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    #421 Clint Eastwood, May 28, 2019
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
    I don't believe that Pomykal was ever called up to any youth team until the U18s in 2016. That was that Vaclav Zejek tournament that the US team won. As a reminder, the kid who was awarded "Player of the Tournament" at that event was Nick Taitague..................................

    As a reminder #2, Pax is a December 1999 birthday. That means he was too old for the 2017 U17 World Cup cycle by weeks, and would have been on the very young side for the 2015 version. There was only one 1999 field player on that 2015 team............Tyler Adams.

    And to be fair, I doubt a single person on these boards was calling for his inclusion on that 2015 team. I don't think he'd been at FCD very long, so we probably didn't even know who he was. Do you know who the #10 was on that team? That was......................FCD homegrown Alex Zendejas.
     
  22. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Sargent has played in this tournament.

    Messi never played in this tournament twice. He never played in this tournament when their was a concurrent Federation championship. He never played in this tournament after being capped by the senior team.

    The whole comparison is specious.

    Soto needs the development too. If Sargent comes, like Weah, he is probably inserted without thought by Ramos. Then Soto doesn't have the tournament saving brace. Maybe Soto gets a few more and carries that confidence back to Hannover and has a great season. Maybe in five years, Soto is starting over Sargent for the USMNT and people look back at Monday as the point he emerged.
     
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  23. didi11

    didi11 Member

    Dec 13, 2013
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    I hope someone would look it up the old ranking.

    My point is not he should be included in any U17 World Cup roster, top drawer thought there were over 100 players in his class who were better.

    We are not talking about playing up for 2015 wc team, we are talking he was ranked so low in the class of birth year 2000 where most players are younger than him.

    Obviously he wasn’t remotely close to YNT, let alone U17 WC. Texans boss Hassan could pull a string or two sometimes with YNT camps, that’s why he may or may not have gone to one early camp
     
  24. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    not sure exactly. 2nd half. maybe 1/2-2/3 through?
    I just remember talking with my son about how bad a feeling that must be the instant that the gk knows he is committed and won't be able to reach the ball...if anyone on the opposing team has it bounce off of him toward the goal it's in.
     
  25. Dave Marino-Nachison

    Jun 9, 1999
    I had been thinking Ramos should've brought Llanez on for KDLF early in the second half -- seemed like Nigeria had Konrad kind of "figured out," so to speak. Turns out it was a good thing he didn't, since with the Richards injury and the scares with Mendez and Soto we needed the flexibility.

    I get that we want to see Weah bury his chances, but for me what kept him on the field was his audacity that, combined with his obvious ability, constantly worried his opposing defenders. (The MNT has had its share of guys who, given the chance, could probably make the play, but who had trouble getting chances against good defenders.)

    If Weah gets a bit more efficient, he can be a holy terror at a high level.

    On a separate point -- sorry, too lazy to read the thread -- it really looked like the Nigeria defender who went down on Soto's challenge from behind in the first half kicked out at him twice. Should've been more discussion of discipline there.
     

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