2019 CWC Referee Appointments

Discussion in 'Referee' started by MassachusettsRef, Nov 14, 2019.

  1. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This has been known inside PRO circles for awhile, but another big appointment for Elfath and team (+Kelly).

    Referees
    AL JASSIM (QAT)
    GHORBAL (ALG)
    ELFATH (USA)
    TOBAR (CHI)
    HATEGAN (ROU)

    VARs
    MING (CHN)
    GASSAMA (GAM)
    KELLY (IRL)
    OSTOJICH VEGA (URU)
    MARTINEZ (ESP)
    MILLOT (FRA)

    FIFA has dispensed with the need to bring in an OFC trio (there is a Tahitian referee as a dedicated 4th official). So 5 referees for 8 matches now. Eflath and team should get at least one good match then--unless they are given the play-in match and then Monterrey advances.

    This is another major vote of confidence in Elfath's team. Al Jassim is a lock for the World Cup. At this point, I'd say so are Tobar, Hategan and Ghorbal (though weird things can always happen with CAF). On paper, Elfath is probably the referee in this group with the most uncertainty over a 2022 place (and that's partly because of Marrufo's standing). But being in the group is what matters, because it means he's being seriously considered for the World Cup. So another huge opportunity.
     
  2. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Yeah...Elfath will be at the World Cup in Qatar and, incredibly, Kelly's, ludicrous (at that time) goal of going to the World Cup doesn't seem absurd now. Admittedly, he made that proclamation before there was such a thing as VAR.

    Quite the rise for Elfath and well deserved.
     
  3. djmtxref

    djmtxref Member

    Apr 8, 2013
    So this means VARs don't need a current FIFA badge, or does Kelly somehow have one?
     
  4. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
  5. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's how it was as U20s. I think it's a question of citizenship.

    There's no official protocols or regulations, to my knowledge. I said awhile ago that FIFA one day might need to figure out if there is a "VAR badge," but it seems like we are still several years off from that being deemed necessary and/or logistically feasible. It would, though, begin to solve any problems of different national associations implementing VAR in different ways.

    For now, FIFA just wants officials trained in VAR--by FIFA. So it involves attending seminars and clinics and tournaments to get the proper training. On the 2022 candidate list, USSF was the only national association that had VAR candidates who are not active FIFAs--they are Kelly, Stott and Jurisevic (note all are former FIFAs, so that part might matter).

    Long way of saying, "yes," you don't need a FIFA badge right now. But it is interesting that the US is the only national association that seems to have successfully availed itself of that avenue. I would tend to believe that Geiger and Webb had a lot of influence there by pointing out MLS has a lot of qualified officials with VAR experience who are not FIFA (indeed, the most active VARs in MLS are ALL non-FIFA except Gantar).
     
  6. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Things look good, but I do think you're jumping to a conclusion here.

    1/3 of the 2015 CWC referees didn't make it to Russia. So there is room and time for error. Plus, the political pressure to not have two Americans again will be strong inside CONCACAF. So there are hurdles to overcome.

    But with Mexico seeming to be struggling to find it's next top international referee and a changing of the guard with Aguilar retiring, there is a giant opening that Elfath is exploiting right now. His performances coupled with his confidence working in a VAR system definitely has him and his ARs on the path to the World Cup right now.


    Yeah, I think Kelly is more of a lock at this point. He's a trusted VAR that FIFA can take without being seen as too much of a sop to the United States.

    Right now, I genuinely think Marrufo's trio, Elfath's trio, Kelly and Fischer are favored to go to the World Cup. Eflath's trio is probably the riskiest bet, because of the political realities.

    You still then have a chance of having an actual American VAR (Villarreal, Stott or Jurisevic) and Barwegan seems like he could sneak his way onto a Central American crew as an AR. It's a weird set of realities and circumstances that lead to MLS having the most officiating candidates for 2022 of any league by far.
     
  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Assignments thus far...

    First Round
    Al-Sadd : Hienghene - GHORBAL (ALG)

    Second Round
    Al-Hilal : Esperance - TOBAR (CHI)
    Monterrey : Al-Sadd - HATEGAN (ROU)

    For the opener, Elfath was FO, Parker was Reserve AR and Atkins is what FIFA is now calling "Offside AVAR" (which is an AVAR in MLS matches, but there is a separate AVAR in FIFA matches... also, it now looks like FIFA is settling on 3 VARs rather than 4).

    For Tobar's match, the same Americans filled the same roles, with Parker and Atkins swapped.

    Kelly is VAR for Hategan's match.

    There are only five referees here. Five matches remain. Monterrey's match today might dictate everything for Elfath and team. If Monterrey lose, I tend to think Elfath gets the Liverpool semifinal (since Monterrey won't be in the match and Elfath then couldn't have the 5th place match).

    If Monterrey win, Elfath might get the 5th place match and thus be available and the top choice for the Final.

    It all comes down to whether or not FIFA would put Ghorbal or Al-Jassim on the Final before Elfath. Because if it's CONMEBOL vs. UEFA, those are the only options. Elfath's team's familiarity with VAR has to help.

     
  8. Mikael_Referee

    Mikael_Referee Member+

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    Interesting incidents from the 1R match.


    => 26' 1-0 goal deemed as onside, very close call, no virtual lines shown
    https://ok.ru/video/1308293073443?fromTime=260

    => 30' Al-Sadd's penalty appeal, trip, no OFR
    https://ok.ru/video/1308293073443?fromTime=374

    => 35' Al-Sadd's penalty appeal, tackle, no OFR
    https://ok.ru/video/1308293073443?fromTime=423

    => 39' 2-0 goal deemed as offside after OFR, in the moment of shot there is a teammate in front of GK
    https://ok.ru/video/1308293073443?fromTime=562

    => 46' 1-1 goal allowed after an OFR, at first it was a delayed foul call
    https://ok.ru/video/1308293073443?fromTime=701

    => 66' 2-1 goal disallowed for offside after VAR-only intervention
    https://ok.ru/video/1308293073443?fromTime=1016

    => 84' Al-Sadd's penalty appeal, kick in the head of lying player, no OFR
    https://ok.ru/video/1308293073443?fromTime=1195

    => ET98' indirect free kick, Hienghène goalkeeper handling the ball after deliberate backpass
    https://ok.ru/video/1308293073443?fromTime=1397
     
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  9. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    5th place match
    Al-Sadd - Esperance de Tunis: ZITOUNI (TAH) [Millot (FRA)]

    Semifinals
    Flamengo - Al Hilal: ELFATH (USA) [Kelly (IRL/USA)}
    Monterrey - Liverpool: TOBAR (CHI) [Ostojich (URU)]

    Is Elfath the first American referee to do at least one FIFA tournament semifinal and final?
     
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  10. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As a referee, yes. I am pretty sure overall, too, but I'm not as sure about that.

    The appointment of Zitouni for the 5th place match is actually very noteworthy because he was only there as a "support" referee with no ARs. In the past, OFC referees have been named as full referees and still not gotten whistles. This time here's there solo and he slides in to referee with Romanian ARs.

    Makes me think there might be an injury issue with Al-Jassim, who is the only referee we haven't seen yet. Either that, or Al-Jassim was slated for the 5th place match and Final (which is completely logical) but can't do the 5th place match because it is a Qatari team. That's probably the answer.

    Unless Liverpool loses, of course. Then I think you see Hategan (otherwise he's on the 3/4 playoff).
     
  11. Mikael_Referee

    Mikael_Referee Member+

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    Elfath's game:

    => 57’ Reckless vs. Serious Foul Play (Al Hilal No.9)? Al Hilal No.9, already cautioned, did not receive any sanction. Foul by Flamengo No. 8? Play restarted with a freekick to Al Hilal. Management of trainers / players re-entering the Field of Play?
    https://streamable.com/f1or8

    => 84’ Red Card for Serious Foul Play, Al Hilal No.19; management (violent conduct against referee? dissent?), no further cards sorted out.
    https://streamable.com/6sdh2

    As I was watching Saghafi's playoff game earlier this year, I was simply shocked at how poor the refereeing was. He looks simply out of place at the top level. Incredible that he got U20 WC Final if you ask me. Clearly USSF pushed him waaaay too much and it all started from there.

    I guess that's not a very popular opinion on here though (I'm not anti-US refereeing - Geiger was someone I liked).

    The other games in the competition not reported here have been well-refereed, and were not especially challenging.

    I would recommend to watch refereeing highlights of Kader Zitouni's game though:
    https://ok.ru/video/1313076480547
     
  12. Mikael_Referee

    Mikael_Referee Member+

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    Al-Jassim is not injured by the way and should get a match (almost definitely Final)
     
  13. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    Saghafi and Elfath are different people?

    PH
     
  14. Mikael_Referee

    Mikael_Referee Member+

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    My point being - I don't see anybody replacing Geiger as a genuine top referee from the current generation unless I missed someone (Marrufo, Elfath, Saghafi).
     
  15. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Third place playoff
    Monterrey - Al Hilal: HATEGAN (ROU) [Millot (FRA)]

    Final

    Liverpool - Flamengo: AL-JASSIM (QAT) [Martinez Munuera (ESP)]
     
  16. gaolin

    gaolin Member+

    Apr 21, 2019
    As someone who has watched the Qatar Stars League since 2012.... seeing Al Jassim get the final. I just... don't know.
     
  17. akindc

    akindc Member+

    Jun 22, 2006
    Washington, DC
    Too soon to know for Saghafi, and Marrufo may have peaked already, but Elfath certainly seems on his way to the top, and this comes from someone that really wasn't a fan of his when he was starting out in MLS.
    Yeah, looks like he missed a call or two here, but that doesn't take away from the rest of his successes. I can certainly see him getting the same kind of international assignments that Geiger got.
     
  18. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If there’s ever a “tournament” for something like this to happen, CWC is it. Liverpool obviously values it more than the Carabao Cup, but does anyone really care about this all that much?
     
  19. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    Liverpool have declined to participate in previous seasons when it was a two-team competition, as did several other teams.

    When it was known as the Toyota Cup and played in Japan between the European and S. American champions, IIRC, the referees were quite often Japanese. So there is precedent for using host country officials in this competition.

    FWIW, in the Olympics, there have been quite a few host country referees who refereed either the final or the
    Bronze medal match.

    PH
     
  20. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I wont be shocked if Al Jassim does one of the final four matches in 2022. Politics play a big role.
     
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  21. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't think @Mikael_Referee is disputing the reality that Elfath has made it to the top echelons. He's gone to two FIFA tournaments in one year and did a Final. The question is whether Elfath's abilities warrant that elevation and the accompanying assignments. Irmatov and Aguilar got top assignments for over a decade; a lot of people in the referee community were baffled by that. It's an open question what sort of subjective category any referee who makes it to this level finds himself in.

    If you go way back to Elfath's MLS debut, I was very skeptical. He got pushed extraordinarily fast (I think it's true to say faster than anyone else--insofar as Grade 8 to National Referee--than any referee who has ever officiated in MLS). Certain skills have shown themselves and he has grown as a referee. He's one of the better referees the US has for the international game right now. That said, it's not really a secret that he makes some LOTG mistakes at a pace that could be called "not infrequent." I think that phenomenon stems from the fact that he was a converted player who was much better at managing a match and players from the get-go and mastery of the Laws were a secondary concern in his development. It's not a deal-breaker, but it's going to always be a risk and in tournaments where one mistake can spell doom, it's something to keep an eye on. You have the injury situation in this tournament. You had the restart for simulation at the last tournament. You've had throw-in mistakes in MLS. They are very small technical nits, but when we are talking about the difference between "elite" and "we trust this guy for a WC knockout match," they can be the difference.

    Having not seen the match and only focusing on the two potential red card incidents... I'm most shocked that Kelly didn't send Giovinco's "tackle" down. It's VC disguised as a challenge for me. I actually get why Elfath doesn't have it (though share the concern of his positive hand movements that work to dismiss any severity when he couldn't be sure), but if we aren't using VAR for that, I wonder why we have it for SFP/RC. The actual SFP red is great. I think Elfath will win plaudits with FIFA for the way he side stepped the aggression from the dissenting player, yet held firm overall. I know online critics won't like the fact that he didn't give a second red card there, but we've got to believe FIFA doesn't want that second red card and when you're trying to get to 2022, you've got to do what you've got to do.
     
  22. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not as big as it used to, though. And, to that point, the "politics" actually work against him. Qatar is already hosting. AFC is holding the tournament. You don't need to give AFC or Qatar a refereeing "win" unless it's deserved.

    CONMEBOL is where you need to lookout. If their teams do not perform well or if Brazil/Argentina appear to be screwed, CONMEBOL desires and applies pressure to get consolation prizes in refereeing terms. See: Cunha, Andres. And for those who backed Faghani, you can also point to Pitana (though that appointment was much more deserved).
     
  23. Mikael_Referee

    Mikael_Referee Member+

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    Al-Jassim was one of the best referees in the world in 2019! He was one of the top two referees at both AFC Asian Cup (with Taqi) and CONCACAF Gold Cup (Barton).

    One can argue that it's unfair that he directly handles the Final (he couldn't handle either Al Sadd or Al Hilal, so FIFA were stuck) but looking holistically at his refereeing, I would argue it's deserved.

    I totally get why people think that this appointment is pure politics, but looking at the detail, it's clearly not the case this time (if you ask me). I would genuinely say he is on a good track to deservedly handle his home WC Final in two years time.

    Even besides those two competitions, he is in great recent shape - very challenging former-SSR Derby that he refereed last month was among the best officiated matches I watched this year.

    I guess nobody will watch Krygyz Republic - Tajikistan game, but I post the link here anyway :D
     
  24. jarbitro

    jarbitro Member+

    Mar 13, 2003
    N'Djamena, Tchad
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That right there is key. PRO/MLS/USSoccer haven't really drawn attention to them though, so you always wonder how much of that FIFA is aware of or even cares about. But you can imagine a situation where he makes a mistake like that on a big stage, and it becomes a huge issue.
     
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  25. Mikael_Referee

    Mikael_Referee Member+

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    https://streamable.com/n41dn

    Very interesting situation from the Final! If you ask me correct solution was Freekick + RC (DOGSO) - would be interested in your thoughts.
     
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