2019 CL/2020 CCL qualifiers [R]

Discussion in 'CONCACAF Champions Cup' started by Paul Calixte, Dec 2, 2018.

  1. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Concacaf Announces Scotiabank Concacaf League Expansion https://www.concacafleague.com/en/article/concacaf-announces-scotiabank-concacaf-league-expansion
    The competition, which will continue to be played in a knockout format, will now kick off with a preliminary round in July. The 12 clubs set to participate in this initial round will be drawn into six home-and-away fixtures. The winners, to be determined on aggregate goals, will join the top nine ranked Central American clubs and the runner-up of the Caribbean Club Championship in the Round of 16.

    In addition to qualifying its champion to the Scotiabank Concacaf Champions League, the tournament will qualify an additional five teams. At the end of the competition, clubs will we ranked 1-15, in accordance with the competition tie-breaking procedure. The top five ranked clubs will automatically qualify for the 2020 edition of the Scotiabank Concacaf Champions League.

    For 2019, the Member Association slots have been allocated as follows (in alphabetical order by Member Association):

    Preliminary Round (12 clubs): Belize 1, Canada 2, Caribbean 3, Caribbean 4, Costa Rica 3, El Salvador 2, El Salvador 3, Guatemala 2, Guatemala 3, Honduras 3, Nicaragua 2 and Panama 3

    Round of 16 (10 + 6 winners of the Preliminary Round): Caribbean 2, Costa Rica 1, Costa Rica 2, El Salvador 1, Guatemala 1, Honduras 1, Honduras 2, Nicaragua 1, Panama 1 and Panama 2.
     
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  2. nfitz

    nfitz Member

    Aug 20, 2007
    Toronto
    They didn't so much add 6 teams, as transfer 5 teams from automatic Champions League entry to Concacaf League, and add Canada 2.

    Other than the second Canadian team, there's still the same number of total teams in the two Concacaf tournament (Concacaf League/Concacaf Champions League).
     
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  3. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    The league had been teasing a special format for year 1. This means they knew ahead of time that they were getting a CL spot.

    We could be looking at any of these scenarios
    1. The club who's 1st overall by July wins the berth
    2. Apertura / Clasura format for year 1 splitting the season in half
    3. A league cup early on going on at the same time as the regular season.
    Most likely exactly like Nations League? Wins, Away Goals, Goal differentials...

    Yes, it's a bit harsh to demote Costa Rica and not CFU Champions. Everyone agrees on which representative is clearly the strongest.

    *I concede, you were right but we still get another opportunity to qualify straight to Champions by avoiding CONCACAF league. Someone pointed out in the Voyageurs Forum that it will actually be easier for a CPL club to go to Champions League via the Canadian Championship than via the CONCACAF League.

    With the Central American leagues demoted to CONCACAF League, you have to think that clubs like Saprissa, Herediano and Alajuelense are among the favorites to advance to CCL. Those clubs did just as good as MLS sides over the years.

    So for CPL, they can go straight to Champions league by defeating 1 or 2 Canadian MLS clubs in less rounds whole they are forced to start 3 Canadians minimums... over having to go through preliminaries + round of 16....
     
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  4. nfitz

    nfitz Member

    Aug 20, 2007
    Toronto
    Pragmatically based on historic results, putting the CFU champion in Concacaf League instead of Champions League, means zero CFU teams in Champions League most years. Look at the coefficient that Concacaf is using for the 15 automatic qualifiers to Champions League. The CFU team is 15 out of 15 for the current 5-year running total. And last out of 15 for each and every year except for 2015/16 where somehow they were second-last behind El Salvador.

    Meanwhile this gives Costa Rica and Panama a realistic chance at having 3 Champions League entries. It's probably El Salvador, Nicaragua, and Guatemala that come out the losers here.

    Let's see how it would have worked for the last two years (2017 and 2018 Concacaf League).

    In 2017 Panama would have had 2 spots, and Costa Rica, Honduras, El Salvador, and Nicaragua would have had one each. (not 100% sure about the last 2 without doing the math better).

    In 2018 Panama would have had 3 spots, and Costa Rica, Honduras, and El Salvador would have had one each. (not 100% sure about the 3rd Panama spot and El Salvador without doing the math better).

    Surely the CPL would have to probably beat three MLS teams. Any the up to 3 CPL teams remaining entering the third qualifying round would play 2 of the MLS teams (and Ottawa). And then likely face MLS squads in the semis and finals. I suppose the easiest path would be Ottawa and then 2 MLS teams.

    In total to qualify through the Voyageurs Cup, they'd have to win at least 4 matches.

    I don't think that's an easier path than winning a preliminary-round and round-of-16 Concacaf League? You'd only have to win 2 matches, and not lose the following one too badly and you are in Champions League. With a bit of luck in the draw, you could get through those two matches without even having to face a fully professional side.
     
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  5. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Dec 17, 2007
    PSG & Enyimba FC
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Nigeria
    Or, now hear me out, or... you could then alternate the US CCL reps away from the Open cup and have that be their big tournament, while CCL goes to MLS Cup and runner up as well as Supporters Shield and Conference winner. I'd prefer the overall SS runner-up but I doubt MLS ever goes in that direction...

    As it stands, giving CCL to the Open Cup makes sense, but if there were another CONCACAF international tournament for Cup-winners, I don't see the benefit in adding to the fixture congestion of a CCL representative...
     
  6. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Canada qualifiers for the Champions League

    2019 Canadian Championship [​IMG]
     
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  7. Paul Calixte

    Paul Calixte Moderator
    Staff Member

    Orlando City SC
    Apr 30, 2009
    Miami, FL
    Club:
    Orlando City SC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Aaaaaaand the CSA went with option 4: none of the above :confused:

    Rather, they have decided that only the three teams that signed up for the CanPL in 2017 - Edmonton, Forge and Valour - will be eligible for the 2019 CL berth, with the league matches between the three used to determine the qualifier.
     
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  8. nfitz

    nfitz Member

    Aug 20, 2007
    Toronto
    Yeah, I didn't see that coming. But no simple solution other than simply waiting until next year.

    The team that ends up playing the July Concacaf League matches is also likely playing mid-week July Voyageurs Cup matches (already having a bye to the June VC matches). Seems like a "be careful what you wish for" situation!
     
  9. ArsenalMetro

    ArsenalMetro Member+

    United States
    Aug 5, 2008
    Chicago, IL
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    No simple solution, sure, but there are about 100 better ones than "we're going to restrict league qualification eligibility to three teams because they registered first."
     
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  10. nfitz

    nfitz Member

    Aug 20, 2007
    Toronto
    The only one that jumps out at me, is appoint FC Edmonton, as it's the only team as it's been around for years, playing in other leagues, and in the Voyageurs Cup.

    Still, the newest of those 3 teams dates to May 2017. The oldest of the remaining 4 teams is May 2018. I'm not saying it's a great solution. But it seems a pragmatic solution.
     
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  11. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The total number of clubs increased by 1, from 16 CL + 15 starting in the CCL = 31 to 22 CL + 10 starting in the CL = 32. I like the change. I didn't like clubs starting in the CCL or having to go through 4 rounds of the CL with nothing in between. Since all 4 Semifinalists qualify for the CCL, clubs who start in the Preliminary Round are guaranteed to make the CCL if they advance 3 rounds, and clubs who start in the Round of 16 are guaranteed to make the CCL if they advance 2 rounds. 2 of the 4 Quarterfinal losers will qualify for the CCL also. If you make every club equally likely to win every round they are in (which isn't true but read more), clubs who start in the Round of 16 will have identical difficulty to when 16 clubs played in the Torneo Interclubes de UNCAF for 3 of the 8 spots in the CONCACAF Champions Cup (CCC). 6 of 16 clubs from the Round of 16 reaching the CCL is double 3 of 16, but the CCL has twice as many clubs as the CCC.

    @Paul Calixte

    Can you make Robert Borden's post above mine and this one into a new topic because it doesn't have to do with the 2019 CCL?

    Edit: Or move the posts to https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/2019-cl-2020-ccl-qualifiers-r.2090663/
     
  12. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Meh, the idea of offering it to the Fury to bribe them to join the CPL would be just as "good"

    Maybe set up a home-away match up with Edmonton.
     
  13. Paul Calixte

    Paul Calixte Moderator
    Staff Member

    Orlando City SC
    Apr 30, 2009
    Miami, FL
    Club:
    Orlando City SC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    For next season - I presume, because June is way to late to be qualifying a team to this year's Concacaf League - Costa Rica's continental participants will be the Apertura winner, Clausura winner and the Cup winner.

    The latter (no, really - they went with the most generic name possible, "Cup Tournament" :ROFLMAO: ) will include all teams in the First and Second Division, and will be played in the summer ahead of the Apertura. So we'll have a team qualifying for the Concacaf League nearly a year early :eek:
     
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  14. nfitz

    nfitz Member

    Aug 20, 2007
    Toronto
    I doubt we'll know the Canada 2 participant until June, given the at least some of the 3 teams competing for the spot, won't start playing each other until May!

    Though I guess there's a difference between a one-off situation, and a long-term plan.

    Though is June too late for a tournament that starts in July? In an earlier format (there's been so many), the Canada 1 team wasn't being selected until the end of May for the Champions League preliminary round that started in July. With weather-related issues one year, they didn't pick the team until the beginning of July, which had to play 25 days later a home-and-away in the Champions League against a Nicaraguan squad!
     
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  15. ArsenalMetro

    ArsenalMetro Member+

    United States
    Aug 5, 2008
    Chicago, IL
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I agree, I don't think June is too late at all.

    I'm excited to see some cups taking place in Central America. Fingers crossed that Copa MX has a qualification berth to some form of a continental tournament in its near future.
     
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  16. Paul Calixte

    Paul Calixte Moderator
    Staff Member

    Orlando City SC
    Apr 30, 2009
    Miami, FL
    Club:
    Orlando City SC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #41 Paul Calixte, Mar 4, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2019
    Going back to the CPL: since I had not seen them compiled elsewhere, here is the list of the games that will count towards determining Canada's representative in the 2019 Concacaf League.

    ---

    Sat, May 4: Valour FC vs. FC Edmonton

    Thu, May 16: Valour FC vs. Forge FC

    Wed, May 29: Forge FC vs. FC Edmonton

    Sat, Jun 1: FC Edmonton vs. Valour FC

    Sat, Jun 15: Forge FC vs. Valour FC

    Wed, Jun 26: FC Edmonton vs. Forge FC

    ---

    I'd just like to point out that (assuming Valour don't run away with this) the CSA's decision will give us CAN2 a whole, whopping five days before the end of the CPL Spring Season. Really, now? They really couldn't just talk Concacaf (who's clearly riding for the league on Montagliani's orders) into waiting five more days for the CPL spring champ to participate?
     
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  17. fridge46

    fridge46 Member

    Oct 23, 2011
    Random what if sceanario...

    If, for example, Valour win the tri-series and qualify for the CONCACAF League as CAN2, then win the Canadian Championship (final in late september, where the CONCACAF League would probably be at the semi-final stage), which allows them to qualify for the Champions League as CAN1, but progresses far enough in the CONCACAF League to be one of the six teams to qualify for the Champions League... What would happen as Valour would be doubley qualified?

    Would Canada be allowed to nominate another team (for example Canadian Championship runner-up)? This might cause issues if CONCACAF continues its slot seeding (CAN1 will be seeded, whilst CAN2 would not).

    Or will CONCACAF allow the 7th best CONCACAF League team to qualify instead to get a full field?

    Or something else?
     
  18. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    If they win CONCACAF league --> CCL
    If they win Canadian Championship this fall, they would be guarantee to play in CCL in Winter 2020. So if they are knockout early in CL, you'd see them in CCL.

    If they win Canadian Championship AND qualifies in the CONCACAF League, you still need to send 2 Canadian teams. So logically, the runner up of the Canadian Championship would go as Valour would have advanced via CONCACAF league

    Yes, Canada has 2 spots so it would go to the Canadian Championship runner-up by default.

    ***But that's only for 2019.

    After that the only way to go to CONCACAF league would be the winner of the CPL in the fall. By then, in such a scenario, the runner-up of the CPL cup would advance to CONCACAF league

    Hope I'm making sense

    No, Canada are guarantee 2 spots
     
  19. Paul Calixte

    Paul Calixte Moderator
    Staff Member

    Orlando City SC
    Apr 30, 2009
    Miami, FL
    Club:
    Orlando City SC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #44 Paul Calixte, Mar 4, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2019
    Well, Canada's not officially guaranteed 2 spots yet in this scenario (i.e. @fridge46 is right to pose the question), but I agree that it would be the correct sporting principle. That is, if the team playing in the Concacaf League as CAN2 goes far enough to qualify for the CCL, they've essentially dragged the CAN2 berth into the big dance, and Canada should keep it even if that team ends up becoming CAN1. Otherwise, Concacaf would be punishing a team's success.

    Why would that be the case? The CCL and CL are in different semesters, so there's no reason a team wouldn't be able to participate in both - like Guastatoya and Herediano are already guaranteed to do this year.

    For example, let's say the universe finally decides to be kind to FC Edmonton and they win everything this year.

    2019 CanPL "Founders' Cup" (man, I should have trademarked this :D ) w/Forge and Valour --> 2019 CL

    2019 Voyageurs' Cup --> 2020 CCL

    2019 CL success --> 2020 CCL as CAN1, Voyageurs' Cup runner-up as CAN2

    2019 CanPL title --> 2020 CL
     
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  20. Nico Limmat

    Nico Limmat Member+

    Oct 24, 1999
    Dubai, UAE
    Club:
    Grasshopper Club Zürich
    Nat'l Team:
    Switzerland
    The USSF will have fully adjusted its qualifying for this edition, sending its teams no later than six months after qualifying.

    Is there any such initiative with the FMF? Right now the most recent Liguilla finalists (America and Cruz Azul) are not sent:

    Santos (May 2018)
    Toluca (May 2018)
    Tigres (December 2017)
    Monterrey (December 2017)

    So the two Monterrey clubs qualified 14 months ago. This made sense for the CCL with group stage - not anymore. I have been told that would mean rewarding clubs from different "seasons".

    But back in the 2008 CCC (before the group stage was introduced) the FMF had no issues sending two representatives from different "seasons".

    Pachuca - 2007 Clausura (Part of the 2006-07 Season)
    Atlante - 2007 Apertura (Part of the 2007-08 Season)

    For the ongoing 2019 CCL, if Toluca (in their awful form) had been one of the clubs who waited 14 months to play this discussion would be more prominent.

    The FMF really should fix this. What gives @jared9999 ?

     
  21. Paul Calixte

    Paul Calixte Moderator
    Staff Member

    Orlando City SC
    Apr 30, 2009
    Miami, FL
    Club:
    Orlando City SC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As several clever posters have pointed out in the MLS forum, this transition period ended up spitting out the exact same teams for the current CCL as if the USSF just picked the regular qualifiers from the 2018 season :D

    That's a feature, not a bug: if and when the FMF kiss and make up with Conmebol, this gap allows Mexico to send the best teams from the Apertura (assuming they're not CCL-bound) directly to the Copa Libertadores. For instance, this year, we would've had América, Cruz Azul and Pumas heading south.
     
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  22. Nico Limmat

    Nico Limmat Member+

    Oct 24, 1999
    Dubai, UAE
    Club:
    Grasshopper Club Zürich
    Nat'l Team:
    Switzerland
    Assuming Concacaf and Conmebol also kiss and make up. :D
     
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  23. Paul Calixte

    Paul Calixte Moderator
    Staff Member

    Orlando City SC
    Apr 30, 2009
    Miami, FL
    Club:
    Orlando City SC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  24. slaminsams

    slaminsams Member+

    Mar 22, 2010
    Not likely. The tournament for it has been a poorly planned disaster that likely won’t be around to long. There was a time when literally no one knew the schedule. They have even been unclear in terms of what the criteria is for teams to participate. It might be by each clubs individual choice but there isn’t anything officially listed anywhere that I can find.
     
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  25. Grimmjow316

    Grimmjow316 Member+

    Jun 20, 2012
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    El Salvador
    What he said.

    Every once in a while some matches do happen but then it goes blank for a while then it starts up again. If they were smart they should have done it like Costa Rica and have had it as a preseason thing.
     

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