2019 Asian Cup - Knockout Rounds II[R]

Discussion in 'AFC: Tournaments' started by el-capitano, Jan 28, 2019.

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  1. Mani

    Mani BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 1, 2004
    Club:
    Perspolis
    Nat'l Team:
    Iran
    #101 Mani, Jan 29, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2019
    You’re wrong about the sanctions. Australia has its own unilateral sanctions on Iran which are still in place. The UN sanctions were suspended in 2015 after the 5+1 deal was implemented.

    But anyways, this isn’t the place for this discussion. I never said all Australian officials are somehow prejudiced or incapable of being impartial. But there is a perception of bias from Australian officials in Iran. It could be a wrong perception, but it does exist. And to be fair, the Australian referee at the Iran-Japan match, while being incompetent, wasn’t really biased, but just the perception about him being out to get us like Ben Williams, got into our players’ heads, made them uncharacteristically nervous, and eventually caused them a complete mental meltdown. This is also partially the fault of the Iranian media, and their focus on this referee before the match.
     
  2. Mani

    Mani BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 1, 2004
    Club:
    Perspolis
    Nat'l Team:
    Iran
    It’s also a cultural problem in Iran with people being generally paranoid about anything associated with the British. And unfortunately, average Iranian associates Australia with the British and all the paranoia that comes with that.

    Anyways. As far as the final goes, if Japan wins their 5th trophy this week, no team can reach their record for at least another decade.
     
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  3. almango

    almango Member+

    Sydney FC
    Australia
    Nov 29, 2004
    Bulli, Australia
    Club:
    Sydney FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Australia
    Its probably an incorrect assumption to associate us with the British. Our Government's foreign policy is much more heavily influenced by the USA these days. We tend to follow anything they do in most areas. I'm not sure that really would help the average Iranians paranoia though to regard us as US aligned rather than British aligned. It may even be worse.
     
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  4. el-capitano

    el-capitano Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 30, 2005
    Sydney
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Australia
    In this day and age of modern technology & high tv numbers, and the introduction of VAR, a ref can't be biased any more. It will be picked up on, and any errors can and will be checked.

    Its time to stop flogging your horse. Its dead.
     
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  5. Mani

    Mani BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 1, 2004
    Club:
    Perspolis
    Nat'l Team:
    Iran
    #105 Mani, Jan 30, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019
    Not necessarily. VAR is just a review system with many flaws, the final decision is still with the referee. In this case, the VAR referee from Italy didn’t agree with the handball/penalty call yesterday, but the Aussie referee reviewed it himself and overruled VAR and confirmed the call. You should take a look at the referee forums here, there is a discussion about it there .
     
  6. Mussab86

    Mussab86 Member+

    Jan 20, 2006
    Jabriya, Kuwait
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    Iraq
    Source ?
     
  7. Mani

    Mani BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 1, 2004
    Club:
    Perspolis
    Nat'l Team:
    Iran
    Do you know how VAR works? Learn that first, and then ask for a source.
     
  8. Mussab86

    Mussab86 Member+

    Jan 20, 2006
    Jabriya, Kuwait
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    Iraq
    You said the Italian referee disagreed with the Australian referee. Just want to know how you know this. What is the source?
     
  9. Mani

    Mani BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 1, 2004
    Club:
    Perspolis
    Nat'l Team:
    Iran
    #109 Mani, Jan 30, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019
    If the VAR official hadn’t taken issues with the call, the referee wouldn’t have been asked to come to the on-field monitor and re-review his own decision. As I said, you should read about, and learn how the VAR process actualy works.
     
  10. Mussab86

    Mussab86 Member+

    Jan 20, 2006
    Jabriya, Kuwait
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    Iraq
    So you dont have source and made an assumption?
     
  11. Mani

    Mani BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 1, 2004
    Club:
    Perspolis
    Nat'l Team:
    Iran
    Good old Mussab...It’s a given fact, not an assumption. Learn what VAR is and how it works and under what circumstances a referee is asked to re-review a decision he has already made, before arguing about it.

    There is a discusion by referees about the VAR and the penalty kick here:

    http://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/var-in-review.2078343/page-23#post-37469547

    What is more intriguing from an officiating perspective, I think, is that it appears the VAR official and the referee have a very different view on this. VAR is only supposed to be sending down to the R for onfield review if the VAR believes there was a clear error that needs to be corrected. So the VAR apparently thought the PK should be reversed.
     
  12. Mussab86

    Mussab86 Member+

    Jan 20, 2006
    Jabriya, Kuwait
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    Iraq
    But again you dont have a source for your claim just assumptions right ?
     
  13. Fureeku

    Fureeku Member

    Feb 9, 2011
    Maldives
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Maldives
    Qatar deserves to be in the final and this is not just because they won all their games without conceding a goal, but because of their tactical versatility. The players have displayed their adaptability with playing in different formations and demonstrated good tactical awareness. For an example, they played with three at the back against South Korea when they had a defender and Madibo out with suspension, and reverted to a four-man backline again against UAE and used it to great effect. They may well lose to Japan in the final, but they have already gone two rounds further than they ever managed to in this tournament, so that alone counts as progress.

    I feel that tactical intelligence is usually a factor that's missing in most Asian players, and teams that have more players with this skillset often prevail in the latter stages of tournaments.. We saw this on full display in the Iran-Japan match. It all boils down to coaching at the grassroots level. Obviously the Aspire Academy is doing something right.
     
  14. Mussab86

    Mussab86 Member+

    Jan 20, 2006
    Jabriya, Kuwait
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    Iraq
    Referees are human being just like the players they want to be high rated. Its silly to think a high prolific referee or even a medium-rated referee intentionally degrades himself in front of FIFA committee. The Referees are monitored by FIFA and points are given to them by performance.
     
  15. persianfootball

    persianfootball Member+

    Aug 5, 2004
    outside your realm
    lol typical mussab. you keep repeating a question that has been answered because you dont have an argument. i gotta admit, your persistence in terms of repeating this tactic makes for moderate trolling proficiency.
     
  16. Mani

    Mani BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 1, 2004
    Club:
    Perspolis
    Nat'l Team:
    Iran
    Qatar’s manager has done a great job with them. I wonder if they’ll keep him for 2022 World Cup. Personaly, I would have never believed that Qatar can get this good, in such a short amount of time.
     
  17. Mussab86

    Mussab86 Member+

    Jan 20, 2006
    Jabriya, Kuwait
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    Iraq
    No, with a person has “below zero” credibility and his lies were exposed in our last discussion but “mercifully” deleted by the mod, he needs to provide some sources to back up his claims/assumptions.
     
  18. persianfootball

    persianfootball Member+

    Aug 5, 2004
    outside your realm
    btw, i just find it interesting how people are praising japan for their unsportsmanlike behavior as "professional" "mentally resilient" "efficient" but when Iranians players reacted to the horrible and incorrect referee decision to not give a free kick to Iran + yellow for japanese player diving, then Iranian players are "unprofessional" "amateur" "unsportsmanlike" "heckling the referee." you cant make this stuff up folks.

    yes the Iranian defenders mucked up: they caused their own downfall with that stupid behaviour. but the bottom line is japan was just as dirty as Iran on that play.

    you also have to consider that the Iranian players, who are used to Iran getting screwed at every asian cup, and were scared of this referee, because he is australian, and the tournament is taking place in UAE, and because prior to that incident the whole match he was giving japan favouritism.. he booked our player when japanese player clearly dived, Iran were not given a penalty when our attacker was brought down in the box (yes it would have been a very soft penalty, but not as soft as the penalty japan got). so that might explain why they rushed the referee. i dont agree with what they did, but it is just a factor to consider before blindly and wildy pointing fingers.

    the bottom line is that the 1-0 goal and 2-0 goal, irrespective of the action of the Iranian players, were contaminated by referee error. for the 1-0, the ref incorrect did not stop play, did not give yellow to japanese player who dived.. which is inexcusable because japan dived at least 2-3 times before that incident.. the ref was quick to see the hand ball but did not see all the japanese dives? the 2-0 goal, as talked about in the referee forum, was not a penalty based on european standards... but in AFC they gave the call.

    also the fact stands that it is unfair to say that Iran played dirty. japan was at least as dirty as Iran, probably more. they dived more than once and they were trying to wind up our players. if anyone remembers, even before the first goal, a japanese player came up from behind dejagah and touched him to provoke him into getting a red. dejagah did a gentle shove on him. we were actually lucky that this referee did not issue a straight red for that considering the rest of his performance. also in the first half japanese player made "diving" motion with his hand after he clearly fouled the Iranian player. to have the audacity to do that after you clearly committed a foul..

    lets not forget that this aussie referee REFFED IN J LEAGUE. therefore he had at least subconscious bias. he probably had yellow fever and wanted to bang more japanese women so he was pro japan. i know people will call this ridiculous but this stuff happens and is a reality. humans have tons of subconscious bias if you dont believe this you should do more research.

    bottom line is that even when losing, Iran tainted japans image. japanese players were crapping their pants every time the ball came for azmoun.. i wont forget that one scene when 2 japanese defenders collided into each other trying to keep azmoun at bay. at the end of the match japan actually celebrated.. they never celebrate winning matches in asia. they knew they had it easier than it was supposed to be. they probably wont even celebrate as much if they beat qatar.
     
  19. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Member+

    Aug 18, 2004
    Tehran Iran
    Iran suffered its first defeat in regulation in the Asian Cup this century in over 22 years and when that defeat came, it was by a margin that Iran had not experienced in a competitive match in an even longer time. In the process, once again Iran failed to advance beyond the semifinal stage of the Asian Cup, the latter an even more long standing tradition ever since Iran last lifted the Asian Cup trophy it had owned for a decade in 1976. So what happened?

    After the loss, I was too hurt and disappointed to want to talk about the game, but I have collected my thoughts on the issue and share them here in 2 parts. First, focusing on the immediate issues and second (in due course), on longer lasting and more generic ones.

    In the immediate sense, Iran lost because Japan's strengths were able to better expose Iran's weaknesses than vice versa. Iran started the match poorly, the players seemingly nervous and unable to even boot the ball on a couple of occasions, but settled in well as the game went on in the first half. In that half, Iran had better shots and came closer to scoring than Japan. That despite the fact that Azmoun was often left alone and Querioz had decided not to pair him with a partner in Taremi's absence.

    Iran then started the 2nd half more brightly than Japan and Queiroz was obviously debating whether to bring in Ansarifard to partner with Azmoun to put greater pressure on Japan upfront. It was at this time that a turnover, a quick sequence exhibiting the strengths of Japan's team work, passing and football acumen, caused a panicked challenge and a bump right outside the edge of Iran's penalty box. For whatever reason, half of our team somehow imagined that the referee had whistled a foul (perhaps even a penalty) and instead of following the play went to argue with the referee. In the meantime, the play proceeded and with Iran's defense exposed, Japan scored. One of the poorer traits in Iranian football, namely the exaggerated focus on referees borne from years of feeling undone by them, cost Iran a goal that turned the game totally around.

    After Japan's first goal, Iran wanted to throw everyone up to find an equalizer, but that made Iran even more open for Japan to expose its defense. The penalty that ensued was unfortunate and while its merit can be debated, from what I saw it was the right call. Iran fell behind 2:0 and frankly Japan outclassed Iran after that and the game ended in a 3:0 loss by Iran. While that result could have been different if Iran had scored first, and we wouldn't then have the opportunity to have the discussion in my next post, the truth is that the better team (not necessarily the stronger one) came on top. Japan was the deserved winner and the 3:0 scoreline left not doubt about it. In the meantime, with Qatar continuing its impressive form thrashing hosts UAE 4:0 and still not conceding a goal, Iranian fans have to admit that the 2 best teams in this tournament are now in the final. For us, however, this loss should be a good occasion to review where we have come and where we might wish to head as we search for our next coach.
     
  20. persianfootball

    persianfootball Member+

    Aug 5, 2004
    outside your realm
    also lets not forget that japans goal scorer for the 0-1 also raised his arm and tried to get the referee to award a penalty for his teammates dive.. then he saw that the ref allowed play on and got luckier than the Iranian players based on the position he was at during this event and sprinted up and scored the goal. so to only blame Iranian players for "not playing the whistle" is ignorant when the actual japanese scorer did the exact same thing but due to luck got to the ball faster and scored off of it.
     
  21. persianfootball

    persianfootball Member+

    Aug 5, 2004
    outside your realm
    #121 persianfootball, Jan 30, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019


    this video sums up Irans attempts to win the asian cup. no matter how much we try to progress the system keeps getting in the way.
     
  22. Mani

    Mani BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 1, 2004
    Club:
    Perspolis
    Nat'l Team:
    Iran
    Anyways, it’s time to move on for all of us. But then again, after the final this week, there are no real matches in Asia till 2020 and that’s depressing. I hope we get an AFC League of Nations. That would be awesome.

    I’ve been one of the biggest supporters of CQ, but I feel it’s time to open a new chapter with a new manager. Either things will get better , or will get a whole lot worse. But either way, I feel we have reached a celling with CQ and his defensively-minded tactics. A new bolder approach is needed.
     
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  23. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Member+

    Aug 18, 2004
    Tehran Iran
    #123 Iranian Monitor, Jan 30, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019
    A good coach is very important in the results a team gets, but I agree with Queiroz that coaches are not magicians. Certainly at the national team level, they don't have players for long enough to do more than to select the best ones that fit the tactics they feel best accentuate their team's strengths, cover its weaknesses and to prepare their side psychologically as well as physically for what lies ahead. But the ingredients they work with will ultimately come from a country's football culture: its football academies, youth programs and league.

    In Iran's case, we have a large population that contains some of the traits needed to build a solid football team in abundance: good physique, good technical abilities with the ball, experience playing the game with a large fan base. What we lack is equally obvious and glaring: our limited resources aren't put into building the strongest foundations for a genuinely top grade domestic league or youth program. Despite Carlos Queiroz being a great football coach (but with obvious character flaws and failings), master tactician (but with limitations), and even though Queiroz's long tenure with Iran allowed him to build a very good side, where he has hurt us the most has been exactly in this department. His overly jealous, competitive nature, has tried desperately to limit the progress and achievements of our clubs, league and other football programs besides his own team. For that reason, the best we could ever get from Queiroz is what we got.

    I am personally not interested in getting a big name coach at the national team level, although that seems to be the direction our officials and fans are heading to. What I care is to get a good manager/coach who is smart enough, not to be a magician (which coaches aren't) but who can manage his side properly while working closely and cooperatively with our football program as a whole. Ideally, for me, that coach needs to be a graduate of our league. Someone who has coached at our club level and knows our football well enough and won't require several years to learn who is who and what we have and what we don't.

    That said, I understand that is not the sentiment of most of our fans. I just hope that even if Iran searches and gets a famous coach, and then suffers the inevitable growing pains that come with a new guy (no matter how famous) trying to learn about our football, this time around we pick someone who will develop a good relationship with our football community and league coaches and who can cooperate to help lift our football up as a whole. Iran's football culture gives us the ingredients for a strong team but we also need the ingredients for a good team (better combination plays, passing, etc) and that can only develop from the ground up and from our league.
     
  24. sokorny

    sokorny Member

    Nov 6, 2014
    Westerm Australia
    Club:
    Perth Glory
    Nat'l Team:
    Australia
    It's ok I've now called the ...

    [​IMG]

    I've heard they are especially good at treating the old "Salty Tears Disease" and "Irritiable Blameitoneveryoneelse Syndrome"
     
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  25. AKITOD

    AKITOD Member+

    Apr 5, 2007
    Hobart, Aust
    Club:
    JEF United Ichihara
    Nat'l Team:
    Japan
    just lol
     

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