2019 Asian Cup - Knockout Rounds II[R]

You have no response

 

even according to "cup wins" Iran is the 2nd best asian team of all time. if you are going to ignore results and only rank based on "number of cup wins" then i dont even know why you are opening your mouth right now because that means Iran is 2nd best in asia after japan. why are you even arguing? what are you arguing about? Iran is 1st based on total performance, and 2nd based on most cup wins. so why are you here and why are you even talking? lmao.

who the hell are you to create "hashim's algorithm for best team in asia= whoever won it most recently." that is a ridiculous metric. you cant judge teams by 1 metric alone, and even if we were to use 1 metric, it would make sense to use "total number of cup wins" as opposed to "most recent cup wins" when determining who is the best of all time. you have no argument. im done with you son. you have been schooled enough for one day.

im going to go live my life now. but you will still be here crying and using subjective, ridiculous criteria to compare AFC asian teams, you are saying Iran doesn't win the "cup" and that overall results and points are meaningless, yet even on that metric you get owned because regardless Iran is at least 2nd of all time in asia according to total cup wins. really rethink your life mate. that is my genuine suggestion to you. adios.

 

Keep living in the 70s

Also japan have the most points per game in your pointless cumulative performance table not Iran so you're not even top of your beloved Asian cup stats table that you are using to compensate for 43 years of not winning it

 

It was only after 2002 when the Asian Games became an age restricted tournament modeled around the Olympics, that the Asian Games lost their status as an official continental championship in Asia. Before then, the Asian Games champions were also considered Asian champions. And to be fair to Iran, we actually have 7 Asian championships to our name (1968, 1972, 1976 Asian Cup, and 1974, 1990, 1998 and 2002 Asian Games). Combined with the fact that Iran has 5 World Cup appearances, is the number 1 ranked team in Asia still; the fact that it has the best win/loss and points record at the Asian Cup and the most top 4 finishes in that tournament; and the fact that Iran won its first World Cup game before either S.Korea or Japan achieved that and more as hosts and has (for a side ranked like Iran) an average (neither embarrassing nor one that speaks of major achievements) World Cup record (gaining between a minimum of 1 point and a maximum of 4 points at the World Cup in each of its appearances); Iran's status as one of the top teams in Asia is beyond dispute. But all that means what we already knew: that too often, despite being one of the favorites to win the Asian Cup (as we have been pretty much in every tournament this century), Iran has failed to do so. Those failures are certainly a part of our record too.

 

round of 16 is just randomness. we have only been 5 times, got close this time. saudi went 5 times, advanced once. south korea and japan hosted and south korea cheated, aside from that world cup south korea only went to rof16 once more than Iran. japan has near identical record to south korea. they went to rof16 once more in 2018 but they got lucky they had a joke group and benefited from a game vs 10 men.

in fact japan has by far the worse points/game at the world cup among Iran, south korea, and saudi yet they made it to round of 16 three times. they only have 1.05 points per game. Iran has 1.5, south has 1.45, and south korea has 1.26. so making round of 16 is also based on luck and the numbers dont lie. it is also based on strength of opponents, specific circumstances, and luck. Iran has the best points/game out of all asian teams at the world cup, yet never made it to round of 16. this is because making the round of 16 in a small sample of 3 games can be based on winning a single game, and that can be based on a single moment in a game.

as for asian cup, it is not only Iran that has not won it for a long time. south korea, also a top asian team forever, has also failed to win it even longer than Iran.

that is just the nature of knock out tournaments.

when judging teams you have to look at everything, not just number of trophies or number of times advanced to round of 16. that would be too arbitrary, it would be missing looking at the whole picture.

we can say that japan is overall the best asian team of all time by a very slight margin. then Iran/south korea/saudi. it is hard to add in australia because they joined recently, but they would be on the same level as Iran/south korea/saudi.

 

I will congratulate Iran one day when they achieve something.

But nearly winning asian cup and nearly qualifying for world cup knockout is not the same as actually doing it.

It's the sign of weak mentality to always fail at crunch time, although seems no Iranians can accept that.

 

Iran = Nottingham forest. Titles in the 70s and now trash and irrelevant nobodies who win nothing and get knocked out of everything they enter.
They remind me of spurs just bottling everything whenever people think they might win.

 

Who/when was the last time the Asian Cup winners won all their games on the way to the title? Especially in normal time. That’s a big achievement by Qatar extra because of the additional game.

 

Iran has both a very strong mentality and a weak one at the same time. A strong one in the sense that we almost never fail to achieve the minimum results, while many others of our status often fail even that much. For a side ranked like Iran (typically hovering around the top 30-40), when we go to the World Cup, we don't come back empty handed or whipped badly. We get respectable enough results. In the Asian Cup, we always without exception qualify to the tournament, we always (except 1992) advance from our group (usually on top) and we seldom lose to anyone in regulation (our loss to Japan our first loss in regulation this century). But we have a weak mentality since once we achieve the minimum acceptable results, we usually tank the games which decide those who have major achievements to their name and those who don't. (Although until the Japan game, that tanking usually took the form of losing on penalties etc).

Basically, no matter how loud we shout and yell and say things in opposite, I guess most Iranians are satisfied not being great as long as they aren't an embarrassment. For me, a sign of that is the hero worship given to Carlos Queiroz, who might have advanced our record slightly but not nearly enough for the hero worship he received.

 

I agree with some of what you say in this post, but I disagree that our failures are random. They are predictable and consistent. For a side like Iran, in fact, which just suffered its first loss in regulation in the Asian Cup this century, it just doesn't seem all that random to lose out each time before the final. For instance, why is it that we have never won (except for consolation games) a penalty shout out at the Asian Cup? After all, Iran has lost 5 penalty shout outs at the Asian Cup! If the penalty shout out is a lottery, that is too many losses for it to be just random!

 

because this stuff happens in knockout tournaments.

why did netherlands, one of the top 8 teams of all time, never win a world cup, despite coming close many times? it just happens. that is the nature of knockout tournaments. does this mean that if hypothetically croatia beat france (could have very well happened) it means croatia is better all time than netherlands? that is nonsense. also on 4 occasions when we had a chance to win asian cup, 1996, 2004, 2015, 2019, on ALL occasions we got screwed by the ref. you could argue that we self-destructed in 2019, but the ref still screwed us with that penalty which was the softest penalty given in the world. nobody can show 1 softer hand ball penalty that was ever given. i invite them to show it to me. again, south korea also have not won asian cup even longer than us. this stuff just happens.

as for world cup record.. why skorea/japan/saudi made it to round of 16. we only made it 5 times. too small of a sample size to say we are worse because another team went to r of 16 once and we did 0 times. i mean it comes down to individual games. our chance was the mexico game in 2006 and we self destructed. or the penalty not being called against argentina in 2014 or taremis last second miss against portugal. one single moment is all it took for us to also go to r of 16. but when sample size is so low at 5, then these stuff happen. it is silly to make grandoise conclusions such as "Iran has never went to the r of 16 therefore saudi has a better world cup record." this is not logical.

we have 1.5 points/game in the world cup... highest in asia. even brazil has 2.17 so 1.5 points deserves at least making it to round of 16 once. but what can we do it just didnt happen, this time we were close but portugal + spain in a group while japan got to play a 10 man team for 90 minutes and also had 2 weak teams in their group. it happens. doesnt mean japan is better because "they went to round of 16." sample size is too low. wait until we go to the world cup another 3-4 editions and we will catch up with other top asian teams.

 

Yes it was very emphatic this victory.

In fact it was the most convincing tournament victory I think I have ever seen.

The only downside was that they allowed Japan to score a goal. Can u imagine if they won this tournament without conceding a single goal. 19 goals to 1 overall. This must be unprecedented for world football. Not only that they won every single match in 90 minutes.

and all amidst the political situation the team was facing.

And nobody can make the argument that they "avoided the top teams"

They beat 3 of the "big 5" Asian teams, again in 90 minutes, and 2 of them they beat by 2 goals.

The 4-0 trouncing of the hosts should not be overlooked either.

It was a very thorough and deserved victory, complete with a cherry on top.

 

bottom line is that overall, for all time, there is a big 5 in asia: japan/Iran/south korea/saudi arabia/australia in no particular order. the gap between these teams is very small so they are all more or less at the same level all time.

there has always been a "floating 5th" (or 6th based on whether australia was in AFC or not). at any given time it was either kuwait, jordan, bahrain, iraq, uzbekistan, etc... but these teams are not consistent. uzbekistan seems to be the most consistent one.

and now we have qatar that has suddenly made the leap into the big 5. now, how long they will stay is anybodys guess. look at iraqs golden generation that won AC2007 for example, after that iraq went back to being themselves. so it is unclear what will happen after this qatari golden generation disintegrates. that depends on whether they consistently are doing things right at aspire academy. but even then... look at spains golden generation from la masia... they have yet to produce young talents that could replace that era. so we will just have to wait and see until when qatar will keep this up. until then, there is a traditional big 5 in asia.

 

they beat 1 asian top team, japan.

based on form, saudi and south korea were not in top 5. they were more like a 6th, on the level of uzbekistan. still qatar did well, but they only won 1 match against a "top asian team," that too due to an early goal from individual brilliance, less because of their team performance. there was only a "big 3" in asia during this tournament: japan/Iran/qatar.

the 4-0 trouncing of the "hosts" doesnt mean much as UAE were not even a top 10 side in this cup. it would be like Iran bragging about beating that shitty chinese side 3-0.

again, it is a shame we wont see how they consistently would perform against top asian sides because they wont be in WCQ.

copa america is an unpredictable tournament. if qatar defends and counters they can do well, because south american teams play with ego and they dont defend. but if qatar plays an open game, i dont expect them to do too well. they wont be thrashed but they will likely lose every game.

i can guarantee colombia will beat qatar though, because CQ will be their coach. colombia will turn into a stronger team with CQ. this is because they have a strong offense but are weak defensively. CQ will turn them into a very result oriented team, and they have lethal options on the counter... cuadrado.. rodriguez.. they will definitely qualify to WC2022 under CQ...and i think they will reach round of 16... although once in round of 16 CQ may play too defensive and cause them to lose in penalties.

qatar will also play argentina.. they will definitely lose. but paraguay.. i dont know how strong they are right now.. not much. but i think they will still beat qatar.

i think colombia will go to semifinals of copa america under CQ and they will play brazil... it will be a close game.. maybe penalties or 1 win goal for either team. CQs defensive style will probably mean colombia will not win the whole thing, but they will either make it to semifinal or final.

 

I am not a fan of achievements because of some big name foreign coach, or because of recruiting some established foreign players to boost your national team. But I am a fan of success borne of grass routes development of the game. Including the way that Qatar achieved their success this time around, as compared to how they were doing things until recently. These "foreign Qatari" players are the product of the foundations Qatar is building for its football regardless of their original nationality. They aren't like the used to recruit in the not so distant past, with whom they would often fail in any case.

 

Qatar beat out pretty much all the top Asian teams except Iran, which had lost 3:0 to Japan and didn't earn the right to play Qatar in the final as a result. I have no doubt that if instead of Yemen, Vietnam, Oman and China, Iran had beat Saudi Arabia, Iraq, S.Korea, hosts UAE and Japan, and won the cup, never mind doing so often with comfortable or lopsided scores and nearly winning the tournament without conceding a single goal while scoring a hat-full in many games, there would already be millions of Iranians clamoring to dot every street in Iran with a statue of Carlos Queiroz!

 

yes but when you specifically go finding children around the world in order to farm and cultivate them, that is too artificial. they are paying the same "foreign coaches" to cultivate foreign children who have been imported to qatar. not much difference from what they were doing before. at least if they used qatari children to be trained at aspire from a young age under foreign coaches it would be acceptable.

 

CQ already owned south korea 5 times in a row, and of those 5 times they were usually a strong south korea, not a nontop5 south korea which qatar faced. so our record is much better than qatar in regards to that.

beating a non top5 south korea and saudi doesnt mean that much. qatar also strugged against iraq... they scraped by 1-0 in a game which could have gone either way. qatar are definitely overrated.

are they a top 3 asian team right now? yes. but no way are they clearly the best team in asia. they are top 3. there is not much of a gap between japan/Iran/qatar right now.

i have no doubt that iran would have beaten saudi and south korea, who we beat 5 times when they were stronger, in this cup, considering that we outplayed japan until minute 55 too.

trust me i hate the CQ worship more than you. but starting from WCQ for 2018, CQ has been a very good coach. he ditched his bunker ball and actually had plans for each game. having said that, everything must come to an end. we have good players right now. as long as we get a coach in the same CALIBRE of CQ, we can perform equally as well as we did under CQ. it doesnt have to literally be CQ on our bench. we have a lot of attacking talent right now, i just hope we get a decent foreign coach (not some 2nd tier crap like branko) who will allow us to attack more but at the same time doesnt make us defensively undisciplined like we were prior to CQs time, e.g. even during our golden era mid 90s to mid 2000s we played good football but gave up way too many soft goals that is why we didnt win anything.

 

to be fair Qatar is a much more stable country than Iraq in terms of the economy and not having wars. Who knows what could have happened with Iraq's golden generation if their country wasn't destabalized through warfare.

They have developed these players from a strong youth program and academy program.

I dont see them going anywhere away from the top few teams in Asia any time soon.

 

@persianfootball,

Two points before I call it a day:

1- CQ did do a fine job building a strong team for Iran, but the hero worship of CQ allowed him to run rampant and nearly destroy every other thing that is important to a successful football program. His competitive and jealous nature made him pretty much reluctant to see our youth or league teams succeed and he wanted all the resources and fans of the game for himself! That is not a price that I would tolerate regardless of how good a team he might have built, never mind it remains a side that wasn't able to overturn the history of our failures in the achievements which are glaringly still missing from our resume.

2- Qatar is a mini-state with an indigenous population less than the average Tehran suburb. The fact that they had to recruit foreign born children is mostly a consequence of their limited pool of players to groom. But the players they groomed, they groomed themselves. The fact that it was with the help of foreign coaches isn't an issue to me. Their success isn't like if China had succeeded because they hired Lippi!

Good night.

 

yes the only team who doesnt spend money on football and is still among the top asian teams is Iran. japan/south korea/australia/saudi (although saudi spends money in inefficient ways) and now qatar. Iran can match these teams based on raw talent alone, but if we want to become the undisputed asian top dogs, we need to start spending money as well. although i dont see any signs of that happening any time soon, so for now Iranian football is a clownshow based on randomness and talent and pride and magic by the coach to grind us through each competition. iraq would also be a consistent top 6th team if they spent money on football.

 

1. i understand CQs flaws. but he also helped our football by fighting the corrupt football mafia in Iran. our youth system is nonexistent and our league is 40 years behind the times, so i dont mind if CQ further had to sabotage them in order to get temporary results with TM. either way, CQ is gone so no point in dragging this discussion. lets just hope we can somehow manage to get a coach of his CALIBRE, whether you agree that he is personally a good coach or not. it would suck if we get a domestic coach or 2nd tier foreign coach like branko again.

2. yes they are small. that is why not every single country can succeed or should succeed at football. but that doesnt mean they should bend the rules. and i dont see how finding foreign children and giving them citizenship purely for the purpose of putting a maroon shirt on them is any better than buying a foreign coach to lead a national team of actual national players, which has forever been a normal thing in football! the former is a radical change that makes a mockery of national teams, while the latter is an established and accepted practice.

 

Watching the final from Doha today....

 

what an unenthusiastic crowd... how many there were actual qataris?