2019-2020 UEFA Referee Discussion [Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by MassachusettsRef, Jun 3, 2019.

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  1. TxSooner

    TxSooner Member

    Aug 12, 2011
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Jochen Drees was asked what the threshold will be after Bundasliga made their decision on how to use VAR with goalkeeper encroachment. His answer was "around 2 meters". His reasoning for such leniency was the rule change was supposed to help goalkeepers, not hurt them, and players rarely get punished for entering the penalty area early.

    This has been beaten around so much. I could digress more. Pandora's box was opened up with VAR, and there are countless situations where the players and supporters of the game were perfectly happy with how the game was officiated all along prior to its introduction.
     
  2. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    I think that is ludicrous reasoning. Based on implementation--and the narrow dispensation that IFAB gave for the WWC--it's clear that was not the intent at all. The intent was "OK keepers, we'll let you take one foot off, but now we really mean it about that second foot staying on or over the line." And how the #$%#$ does VAR implement "about 2 meters"?!?!? (That would be almost like saying in the Laws that some things are "usually" offenses....)

    I agree with MR that not using VAR on GK offenses to allow on the field to make a more holistic call is defensible (and I would be untroubled by the GK under discussion not being called), but using VAR without concrete, clear standards on something like this makes not a whit of sense.
     
  3. jayhonk

    jayhonk Member+

    Oct 9, 2007
    2 meters, is this an absurdist way of saying we are not calling it?

    If he had said 20 centimeters, we all would be nodding our heads.
     
  4. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Not really. How are you going to measure 20 cm using VAR? And are you really going to defend in public that one PK was retaken because the GK was 21 cm off and the other was not because it was 19? (Now I might see a plausible analysis that said to be "clear error" that warrants VAR intervention, the GK must have been off 3 frames (a tenth of a second) before contact with the ball, and that anything less than that was not to be considered clear enough for VAR to be involved.)
     
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  5. Ethan Frank

    Ethan Frank Member+

    Chelsea
    United States
    Jun 11, 2019
    A keeper just has to keep one foot within 2 meters of the goal line? If so, Scurry's save in the 1999 WWC final would still be considered fair if made today in the Bundesliga. That's just ridiculous in my opinion.

    I'm less forgiving than most when it comes to keepers not being able to keep at least one foot on the line (and keepers in the WWC knockouts adjusted just fine), but yeah, a threshold of 20 centimeters would be a lot more reasonable.
     
  6. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, there's a big difference between 20cm and 2m.
     
  7. Thezzaruz

    Thezzaruz Member+

    Jun 20, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    I'd say that this is the same as the Eduardo PK from some years ago, i.e people are looking at the wrong place. The contact that ensures the fall is the contact between the keepers knee and the attackers foot.
    I have no issues with that being given as a PK.
     
  8. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The UCL playoff matches are this week, which are where VAR and the Elite referees come in. Truly some of the most consequential matches until you get to the late knockout stages because money from group stage participation is on the line, so these are a big deal:

    Cluj : Slavia Prague - CAKIR (TUR)
    APOEL : Ajax - MATEU LAHOZ (ESP)
    Linsker ASK : Club Brugge - MARCINIAK (POL)

    VARs are from the same countries.

    Eyes will be on Marciniak this year. He needs to perform if he wants late knockout stages and to secure a Euro 2020 appointment.
     
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  9. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Good decision by UEFA. I was not impressed by the performance of Craig Pawson in the mid-week match of Ajax - PAOK. Seemed he really didn't take control of the league.
     
  10. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What do you mean by “decision?”

    Also I heard that all three penalties awarded by Pawson were correct. What were the issues in that match?
     
  11. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    to bring in the best CRs

    The penalties were all correct but there was a lot of persistent fouling going on that was never called. Ajax play a very short space passing game and PAOK defenders were chopping away at ankles all match long.

    EDIT: Given the short time England has had with VAR, will there be any English crews assigned to the playoff round?
     
  12. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ah, okay. It’s been standard operating procedure forever, so I don’t really view it as a decision, which is why I asked.

    No one knows.

    Referees with no or little VAR experience are going to have to be used in the group stages. So at some point UEFA is going to need to relent. They might wait until matchday 1 but my guess is you’ll see Hategan and at least one of the English referees on the remaining 9 playoff matches.
     
  13. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Do you have any guess who the top ranked English CR is these days?
     
  14. jdmahoney

    jdmahoney Member

    Feb 28, 2017
    Plymouth, MN
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Oliver.
     
  15. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Oliver with FIFA. Harder to say with UEFA. Taylor did really well last year. It’s close but probably still Oliver at the moment.
     
  16. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Wonder if we we will see Frappart on any of the playoff matches...?
     
  17. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I know this is meant in jest and I agree with the sentiment. But putting her as FO to Turpin would be a smart move politically that would save some sort of face with those who recognize how absurd the Super Cup appointment was.

    Short of that, I bet she sees a UEL group stage match this year.
     
  18. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Assuming Steinhaus is heathly, surely she should get a EL match too.
     
  19. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Should, could and would are important distinctions here. I’m not sure which word best applies.

    Steinhaus and Frappart getting UEL matches is still a pretty decent leap given there are a couple male FIFAs from their own countries who don’t. And they haven’t done any qualifiers.

    That said, using more than one female referee does alleviate some of the pressure that would be applied if only one was appointed. So maybe it will be two or none.
     
  20. London_ref

    London_ref Member

    May 6, 2014
    London, England
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Wednesday's assignments:

    GNK Dinamo - Rosenborg BK: Daniele Orsato (ITA)
    BSC Young Boys - FK Crvena zvezda: Danny Makkelie (NED)
    Olympiacos - FC Krasnodar: Carlos del Cerro Grande (ESP)

    So that leaves us with the following pool of refs that could be in line for a 2nd leg appointment:

    Hategan
    Kuipers
    Oliver
    Rocchi
    Skomina
    Taylor
    Turpin
    Zwayer
     
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  21. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Aren't you missing Brych?

    Also, technically Ayetkin, Gil Manzano, Kassai, and Soares Dias, too, right? All are Elite referees with the requisite experience or training.

    Ayetkin is very unlikely to get a match. Gil Manzano is AVAR on one of the leg 1 matches--that doesn't preclude him, but three Spaniards would be a lot for 12 matches. Kassai had a UEL match and appears to be on the downward swing. And I don't really know about Soares Dias--he's probably too far outside a top 12 to be trusted but it's not completely insane.

    So in practice, I think your list is probably right if you add Brych. But in theory it is larger than what you've put down.

    I would bet Zwayer and one of the English referees misses out (by virtue of serving as VAR to the other). Not sure who the third referee would be.
     
  22. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Curious to know who his VAR will be. Makkelie is the best VAR in the Dutch league. I don't know if Kuipers has done much VAR work. Most of the other international CRs who have done league VAR have only done some Europa matches.
     
  23. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's Kamphuis. Van Boekel is AVAR.

    UEFA is opening up the VAR function much more widely for this season. They simply have to do so, of course, or the strains on personnel would be too demanding. But it means you are going to see a lot of main VARs in UEFA competitions who are either not highly rated or thoroughly vetted as CRs by UEFA. It's the Irrati phenomenon going continent-wide; the VARs for Cakir and Mateu Lahoz are also relative nobodies. And UEFA has no problem putting the lower-ranked official as VAR over a higher-ranked AVAR... because the rankings/assessments from VAR are and will be distinct from referee performance (as they should be).
     
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  24. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Both are decent CRs and have done a fair amount of VAR duty (I think Kamphuis was VAR for the Ajax match on Saturday). I imagine that Higler might be the fourth official as he's done that in the past for Kuipers when Makkelie was the VAR.
     
  25. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Blom is FO this time.
     

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