2019-2020 UEFA Referee Discussion [Rs]

MassachusettsRef · Nov 16, 2019

Orange14 said: ↑

Marciniak gives a hand ball against Veltman in the Northern Ireland - Netherlands match. Another one of the those calls that could have gone either way. there was a lot of arguing and pointing but it was not clear what that was all about. Didn't matter as the PK was skied over the bar.
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I defended Rocchi's call on Veltman, and concede it could have gone either way and reasonable people could disagree.

But this one just seems like a wrong decision. On replay, there's nothing here that justifies a penalty: https://streamable.com/pg14w

Arm is naturally positioned. No deliberate move to the ball. And it comes immediately from an opponent's foot and close proximity. And obviously the arm isn't above the shoulder. There's just nothing here for a penalty.

balu · Nov 17, 2019

Stephanie Frappart did the second leg of All-Ireland's Champions Cup last week. She will be doing U-21 Euro qualifiers between Italy and Armenia in Catania in two days (this time with male assistants).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champions_Cup_(All-Ireland)
https://www.uefa.com/under21/match/2026589--italy-vs-armenia/matchinfo/?iv=true

Thezzaruz · Nov 17, 2019

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

I defended Rocchi's call on Veltman, and concede it could have gone either way and reasonable people could disagree.

But this one just seems like a wrong decision. On replay, there's nothing here that justifies a penalty: https://streamable.com/pg14w

Arm is naturally positioned. No deliberate move to the ball. And it comes immediately from an opponent's foot and close proximity. And obviously the arm isn't above the shoulder. There's just nothing here for a penalty.
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Might also add that the attacker has his hand pushed in under the defenders arm, that likely contributed to it being raised like that at all.

RefIADad · Nov 17, 2019

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

I defended Rocchi's call on Veltman, and concede it could have gone either way and reasonable people could disagree.

But this one just seems like a wrong decision. On replay, there's nothing here that justifies a penalty: https://streamable.com/pg14w

Arm is naturally positioned. No deliberate move to the ball. And it comes immediately from an opponent's foot and close proximity. And obviously the arm isn't above the shoulder. There's just nothing here for a penalty.
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Watching this one a few times, I agree. If VAR was in play, I think a good case to recommend an OFR would happen. By the Laws, that just didn’t seem to meet the criteria for handling.

It’s a tough call to make live, but I also don’t see enough to call that handling.

El Rayo Californiano · Nov 17, 2019

Green #6 wants a corner kick, but he'll settle for a penalty kick.

balu · Nov 24, 2019

Matchday 5

Galatasaray - Brugge: KRUZLIAK (SVK) [Irrati (ITA)]
Real Madrid - PSG: SOARES DIAS (POR) [Lopes Martins (POR)]
Crvena Zvezda - Bayern: KUIPERS (NED) [van Boekel (NED)]
Tottenham - Olympiacos: KABAKOV (BUL) [Fabbri (ITA)]
Atalanta - Dinamo: KARASEV (RUS) [Dankert (GER)]
Man City - Shakhtar: VINCIC (SVN) [Makkelie (NED)]
Lokomotiv Moscow - Leverkusen: OLIVER (ENG) [Kavanagh (ENG)]
Juventus - Atletico Madrid: TAYLOR (ENG) [Attwell (ENG)]

Soares Dias and Taylor with the marquee matches.

MassachusettsRef · Nov 24, 2019

Quite interesting to see how the Group D matches broke down for the two English referees. Of course, Oliver isn’t going to Turin anytime soon, so that has to be taken into account. But still another confirmation that Taylor is ahead at the moment.

balu · Nov 25, 2019

Liverpool - Napoli: DEL CERRO GRANDE (ESP) [Sanchez Martinez (ESP)]
Genk - Salzburg: GESTRANIUS (FIN) [Kamphuis (NED)]
Barcelona - Dortmund: TURPIN (FRA) [Letexier (FRA)]
Slavia Prague - Inter: MARCINIAK (POL) [Gil (POL)]
Zenit - Lyon: ORSATO (ITA) [Guida (ITA)]
Leipzig - Benfica: GIL MANZANO (ESP) [Martinez Munuera (ESP)]
Valencia - Chelsea: ZWAYER (GER) [Stegemann (GER)]
Lille - Ajax: BRYCH (GER) [Dingert (GER)]

Turpin and Del Cerro Grande with the marquee matches, Zwayer with a crucial clash, Brych handles Ajax for the third time this calendar year.

balu · Nov 25, 2019

Selected EL appointments

Malmo - Dynamo Kyiv: KRALOVEC (CZE)
Sporting CP - PSV: GRINFELD (ISR)
Lazio - Cluj: PALABIYIK (TUR)
Arsenal - Frankfurt: BUQUET (FRA)
Krasnodar - Basel: MADDEN (SCO)
Trabzonspor - Getafe: TREIMANIS (LVA)
Astana - Man Utd: RUMSAS (LTU)
Feyenoord - Rangers: SKOMINA (SVN)
Wolfsberger - Moenchengladbach: GOZUBUYUK (NED)
Basaksehir - Roma: HATEGAN (ROU)
Braga - Wolves: KULBAKOV (BLR)

Surprising to see so many big names in EL Group Stage Matchday 5. Treimanis returns to European action after his U17 WC Final. Kralovec returns after a long pause.

MassachusettsRef · Nov 26, 2019

We just reached a new level of farce in Madrid...

Foul by Real Madrid goalkeeper. DFK is given and red card to the keeper. Honestly, I think the DOGSO aspect was doubtful but, more importantly, the foul was 100% inside the area. So VAR intervention leads to a PK and yellow card, right? Everyone will be relatively happy with that since it's the obviously correct call. Referee goes to the monitor and we get...

A DFK to Real Madrid at midfield, for an alleged foul at the start of the APP. It was two-handed push but a very soft one that the Madrid player tried to sell because he misplayed his header. And worst of all, the referee was looking RIGHT AT the alleged foul. This was re-refereeing in the extreme. And it was not what football expected.

gaolin · Nov 26, 2019

Just saw that happening MassRef.

Funny thing was is that no one in RM camp protested that push on Marcelo so why was the foul given?

Just... a farce.

---

Scene of aforementioned over-turned red/penalty in favor of Real Madrid.

¿Era falta del PSG? ¿Había penal para los franceses? 🤔

El VAR le quita una pena máxima en contra al Real Madrid 😯

🇪🇸Real Madrid 1-0 PSG 🇫🇷

🔴EN VIVOhttps://t.co/6Xg6e5PD5y pic.twitter.com/CUL9lxPbSd
— TUDN USA (@TUDNUSA) November 26, 2019

KCbus · Nov 26, 2019

I don't have a problem with this.

That's a shove in the back that allowed him to gain control of the ball, and it started the attacking phase of play. To me, that's one of the things VAR is there for.

It just winds up in that subjective gray area of "how egregious does it need to be" for more people to like it than not like it.

MassachusettsRef · Nov 26, 2019

Another look at it, just in case that Tweet comes down: https://streamable.com/7vhdr

Perhaps the worst part is that Soares Dias looks right at the incident, refuses to call the foul AND waves the player up. He saw it clearly, determined it was trifling and/or embellishment and then bails himself out of a tough decision by agreeing with a VAR who should have never sent that down as a clear error.

To be perfectly honest, Soares Dias has looked relatively weak out there generally. Throw this mess in the mix and he's appeared completely lost for the duration of the half. This looked like a test appointment to me and I've got to say I don't think he's passing the test.

MassachusettsRef · Nov 26, 2019

KCbus said: ↑

That's a shove in the back that allowed him to gain control of the ball...
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Strictly speaking, not really. It was a poor header and the PSG player put his hands on his opponent so the RM player decided to throw himself to the ground because he already lost possession. Calling that a "shove" just isn't accurate.

But a debate over whether or not it's a justified foul call really isn't the point.

... and it started the attacking phase of play. To me, that's one of the things VAR is there for.
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Legally, yes, it's there to review incidents that start attacking moves that lead to goals, PKs or red cards. But you would argue VAR is "there for" this type of incident? You think this is what people wanted when they asked for technology? It's a borderline foul decision. I don't recall a clamoring for video replay to reverse judgements like this.

It just winds up in that subjective gray area of "how egregious does it need to be" for more people to like it than not like it.
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But that's the whole point and can't be dismissed. And it's also not about majority rules. VAR is supposed to only apply to those situations where 95% of observers would say "oh yeah, that's clearly wrong." That's not even 95-5 in favor of "yes, it's a foul." That's 95-5 in favor of clearly a foul.

Again, the problem here is that Soares Dias looks at the incident with as good a view (if not better) than he would get with replay. He dismisses the foul appeal and admonishes the allegedly fouled player to get up. He saw it clearly and he said it was not a foul. That's a perfectly justifiable decision (and one I happen to agree with, but that's irrelevant). Looking at it again and calling it a clear error is astounding and is re-refereeing, which is the exact thing IFAB and FIFA said would never happen.

socal lurker · Nov 26, 2019

gaolin said: ↑

Funny thing was is that no one in RM camp protested that push on Marcelo so why was the foul given?
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Say what? The "victim" instantly has his arms in the air when he lands, and when play stops he's clearly signalling a push to the referee and pointing up field where it happened. You may disagree with the call, but saying there was no protest is incorrect.

gaolin · Nov 26, 2019

socal lurker said: ↑

Say what? The "victim" instantly has his arms in the air when he lands, and when play stops he's clearly signalling a push to the referee and pointing up field where it happened. You may disagree with the call, but saying there was no protest is incorrect.
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Marcelo is known for embellishing but I what I meant was other players. But was it a foul? Ref looked at it and saw nothing.

socal lurker · Nov 26, 2019

We've discussed on here many times the problem of "clear error" on fouls. A foul call here is certainly defensible--two hands that seemed to move the player (who then elaborated it). No one would have complained at all if it were called live (though we would, I suspect, debate whether it was a foul that needed to be called or an easy midfield game control foul). But that is far different from applying a clear error standard to the play. Really the only thing that I could see that could justify reversal of that on clear error is if the R thought he saw X that influenced his call, and on watching the replay he saw not-X. Not sure what that could be--perhaps he thought there wasn't actually contact and that's why he no called it?

I don't see this so much of a farce in implementation as a demonstration of the problem of the whole concept of going back up the APP and then trying to weigh the difference between a foul and a foul that was clear error to miss. I agree that this is nothing close to the kind of egregious mistake VAR was intended to correct--whereas the in/out of the PA certainly was.

Thezzaruz · Nov 26, 2019

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

Perhaps the worst part is that Soares Dias looks right at the incident, refuses to call the foul AND waves the player up. He saw it clearly, determined it was trifling and/or embellishment and then bails himself out of a tough decision by agreeing with a VAR who should have never sent that down as a clear error.
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Yea this is a problem tbh. I have no issues at all with calling the push as a foul but not in the way it came about. No way that's a clear error not to call it in the first place.

RedStar91 · Nov 26, 2019

Simply staggering on so many levels. What a farce.

Couple of questions I have.

How did the crew come with up a DFK and red card to Courtouis in the first place and not a penalty kick? The attacker ends up in the penalty area. Courtouis never leaves the penalty area. His body is in the penalty area when the whistle is blown. What context clues lead you to believe the foul is outside the penalty area?

Also, he does look really meek in the whole incident.

Hard to believe that Portugal goes from Olegario Benquerenca and Pedro Proenca, two referees who never were lacking confidence, to this as their #1 referee and future tournament representative.

socal lurker · Nov 26, 2019

RedStar91 said: ↑

How did the crew come with up a DFK and red card to Courtouis in the first place and not a penalty kick? The attacker ends up in the penalty area. Courtouis never leaves the penalty area. His body is in the penalty area when the whistle is blown. What context clues lead you to believe the foul is outside the penalty area?
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I can see how the R--sprinting to catch up to the play, could be uncertain and err on the side of outside. But (based on where he is a moment later when we see him) it appears the AR was in perfect position to see and correct immediately--I would have expected him to be immediately in the R's ear telling him its a PK.

(There's also a bit of irony here--only because the DFK was a clear error that should have been a PK is the APP review available; if the DFK call was correct, VAR could not have looked back.)

MassachusettsRef · Nov 26, 2019

socal lurker said: ↑

(There's also a bit of irony here--only because the DFK was a clear error that should have been a PK is the APP review available; if the DFK call was correct, VAR could not have looked back.)
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Technically the red card triggered the review. Yes, it was a bad red card. But if it had been a good red card with the DFK, there still would have been a review.

socal lurker · Nov 26, 2019

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

Technically the red card triggered the review. Yes, it was a bad red card. But if it had been a good red card with the DFK, there still would have been a review.
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The graphic on the video said it was for a possible PK, though I have no idea how accurate that is.

But assuming it was for the red card, does that authorize going back to the APP? I thought only goal and PK let you go backwards like that?

El Rayo Californiano · Nov 26, 2019

Without VAR, do Casemiro, Marcelo, and Sergio Ramos engage the referee the same way?

MassachusettsRef · Nov 26, 2019

Meanwhile in Istanbul, not something you see everyday: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7oi3sa

KCbus · Nov 26, 2019

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

Meanwhile in Istanbul, not something you see everyday: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7oi3sa
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Double dose of dumb.