2019-2020 UEFA Referee Discussion [Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by MassachusettsRef, Jun 3, 2019.

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  1. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think Soares Dias might have really hurt himself with that decision, to be honest. I guess he was good overall and it's only one call. Plus the Dutch still won. So maybe it will be forgotten. But that was way worse than what Hategan gave in the 2017 playoffs, which doomed his chances at WC18. So the only thing that possibly saves Soares Dias here is the context and timing.
     
  2. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    The stadium being in Hamburg perhaps?:rolleyes:
    The effect of home crowd is well established.

    PH
     
  3. Thezzaruz

    Thezzaruz Member+

    Jun 20, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    For anyone that haven't seen it, it starts at 8.35.

    And I have to agree here, this just isn't an offence. Had it been an attacking player then I could well see it ruling out a goal, but a defender giving up a PK? No way.
     
  4. De Ligt raised his hands in protest towards the ref to prevent a corner as he claimed an off side, looking at the ref. When he lowered his hands he felt the ball on his shoulder and realised there wasnot a corner yet and then the ball fell on his hand.

    Actually my rule in the book would be any contact with the hand/arm to the ball in the box=penalty. Doesnot matter the circumstances. Just like in field hockey any contact with the feet in the box=penalty. It's far more difficult to prevent foot/ball contact in field hockey than arm/hand contact in football.
    Then the discussion can swap to yes/no arm/hand contact.
     
  5. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Great. Let’s make the best play in soccer chirping the ball at defender’s arms in the PA. That should be fun to watch.
     
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  6. Defenders will know lousy strikers will look for that.
    Quality strikers willnot risk a goal scoring opportunity for looking for a chip to the defenders arm.
     
  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Highlights of the final set for this international break.

    England : Kosovo - ZWAYER (GER)
    Luxembourg : Serbia - MASSA (ITA)
    Albania : Iceland - KRUZLIAK (SVK)
    Moldova : Turkey - GRINFELD (ISR)

    Haven’t seen Turpin, other than VAR on the Super Cup, at all this season in Europe. If he doesn’t get a big MD 1 UCL appointment, that might mean something is up.
     
  8. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    From the mouths of babes, this should show you why this idea is awful.

    My son's team was playing in a tournament last month. The center was clearly not fully cognizant of the new handling laws. Two separate times, my 11-year-old son had a ball deflect off of his leg (remember, he's 11 - definitely not in full control of his body and skills yet) into his arm at his side. Both times, the center called for a penalty kick.

    After the game, my son and his goalkeeper teammate were REALLY upset. The keeper said that if this was how soccer was going to be played, he didn't want to be a goalkeeper anymore. My son was so concerned about this happening again that he was off of his game later in the day as well. After the game, I had a good conversation with the center and talked through some aspects of the new handling law. He walked away realizing he had incorrectly awarded handling (I was also officiating in this tournament and had a chance to have a "ref to ref" talk. When it comes to parenting, I don't have discussions like this parent-to-ref).

    In an effort to make handling more objective, IFAB has screwed up in a big way. We need to place more judgment back into the officials' hands, not make things more objective and negatively impact the game more than it's already been impacted by this new law.
     
  9. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What did you think about this from Madden, @allan_park ?



    Seems like he guessed and/or reacted to the Italian players. I'm not sure how he could possibly have the angle there. And, if he did have it, I'm not sure how he could say that merits a penalty.

    In other news, the Massa and Grinfeld appointments have either been swapped or were reported incorrectly the first time.
     
  10. allan_park

    allan_park Member

    May 15, 2000
    Not sure why I am being singled out for a response, but I suppose because I pointed out that Madden has been getting some pretty big assignments from UEFA recently.

    In any event, I don't like that PK call at all. New Laws, old Laws, any Law any time I don't think that is a handling offence. I don't think his positioning is great (not bad, but not great either) but on the basis that you "don't give what you don't see", I really cant understand that call.
     
  11. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, that, yes. But also because I value your opinion and figured you paid attention to the match, so assumed you would have one!
     
  12. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Although the video quality was not great, I did go through the replay and stop it at some points. To me it looked like the player was pulling his arm in (making himself smaller?????:cool:). Clearly, VAR would have the ability to look at this in more detail but the question remains if a player is pulling his arm in and/or turning away, should this be a PK call? I don't believe so but I'm not a trained referee.
     
  13. allan_park

    allan_park Member

    May 15, 2000
    I was only "pulling your chain"! No problem at all. :)

    I didn't see the game but did get sent the clip by a number of people this morning and must confess to being surprised and disappointed by it.

    It's actually quite strange - his position is such that you could see him possibly miss a handling offence if there HAD been one (as the contact was towards his blind side), but I struggle to see how he could have seen enough to justify a call there.

    I hate to say it was possibly a "guess", as you suggest above, but it's hard to argue against that. If it was, though, it was a bad one.
     
  14. jayhonk

    jayhonk Member+

    Oct 9, 2007
    I would suggest that there is some internal mental process that doesn't like assymetry. In this case, the assymetry that punishes the attackers' inadvertant handball that leads to a goal; vis-a-vis the defender in the penalty area not being punished for inadvertant handling. This was a terrible call, but maybe in a few years referees get used to that assymettry, and an mistake like this doesn't happen.

    Talk about the law of unintended consequences... IFAB wanted to do a couple of things, say that those handballs that always get called because they lead to attacking advantages and now actually handballs. And, oh yeah, you cant score off a handball. Both of these are very reasonable things to try to accomplish. Look where we have gotten. Maybe they should have left the Laws alone, and hope that egregious plays like Henry vs. Ireland get caught by VAR.
    (That last part sounds like a joke, but its not.)
     
  15. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    His angle is horrible. The leading hand is way outside of the body. The one the ball hit is tucked in. Is it possible he thought it hit the other arm?
     
  16. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've seen a lot of talk--here and elsewhere--that goes to the new LOTG language as explanations for these two poor penalty decisions.

    I would suggest that it's highly probable that these are just two poor calls and their existence has almost nothing to do with the law changes. Madden had a very poor angle; even if he didn't "guess," he saw something that just didn't actually happen. My best guess with Soares Dias is that he whistled too quickly and didn't contemplate the entire context of what he just saw. Both of these are not penalties today and both of these were not penalties before the new LOTG. Nothing that was truly relevant to how these two incidents should be called has changed recently.

    It's kind of a timely reminder about how no matter how legislated the handball law becomes, referees are not robots and only get to see things once. In non-VAR matches, poor decisions are still going to be made. In VAR matches, I suppose the argument is that every handling call in the penalty area (both attacking and defending) can now be "correct," with the caveat that the standards now officially vary based on who is the guilty party.
     
  17. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Probably/possibly.
     
  18. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    I don't like asymmetry myself!

    PH
     
  19. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Matchday 1

    Group E
    Salzburg - Genk: ZWAYER (GER)
    Napoli - Liverpool: BRYCH (GER)

    Group F
    Inter - Slavia Prague: BUQUET (FRA)
    Dortmund - Barcelona: HATEGAN (ROU)

    Group G
    Lyon - Zenit: OLIVER (ENG)
    Benfica - Leipzig: SIDIROPOULOS (GRE)

    Group H
    Ajax - Lille: JOVANOVIC (SRB)
    Chelsea - Valencia: CAKIR (TUR)

    Brych and Hategan with the early marquee matches, Jovanovic makes his debut, Cakir in London.
     
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  20. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    For VAR mixed country crews it’s Marciniak with Hategan, Irrati with Sidiropoulos, and Dingert with Jovanovic.

    Jovanovic is someone to watch. I think we will be seeing a lot of him. Test for Oliver out of the gate and a clear signal that Hategan will be a marquee figure this season.
     
  21. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Frapport watch commences. Will we see her in the CL?

    I think the most interesting aspect of the CL from a group stage assignment perspective will be if we see Frapport at all on a game.
     
  22. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don’t think it’s a serious watch. UEL, if anything. You can justify having her skip that entire step on the ladder (and others).

    Then again, you can’t justify the Super Cup either. But I think everyone understood the PR aspect of that one.
     
  23. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think they both (her and Bibi) deserve a shot at the Europa League.
     
  24. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    VARs in brackets

    Group A

    Brugge - Galatasaray: VINCIC (SVN) [Orsato (ITA)]
    PSG - Real Madrid: TAYLOR (ENG) [Attwell (ENG)]

    Group B
    Olympiakos - Tottenham: ROCCHI (ITA) [Valeri (ITA)]
    Bayern Munich - Crvena Zvezda: MADDEN (SCO) [Van Boekel (NED)]

    Group C
    Shakhtar - Man City: SOARES DIAS (POR) [Martins (POR)]
    Dinamo Zagreb - Atalanta: GIL MANZANO (ESP) [Hernandez Hernandez (ESP)]

    Group D
    Atletico Madrid - Juventus: MAKKELIE (NED) [Kamphuis (NED)]
    Leverkusen - Lokomotiv Moscow: RACZKOWSKI (POL) [Gil (POL)]

    Taylor and Makkelie with the marquee matches, notable that Taylor gets the much bigger match in France than Oliver.
     
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  25. Mikael_Referee

    Mikael_Referee Member+

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    Honestly, I don't think it is that noticeable or at least surprising that Taylor is ahead of Oliver internationally. Taylor is in excellent shape right now, and is much better suited to UEFA games than his compatriot who is the optimal referee for PL games (in the background, 'making friends' with the players rather than 'real' charisma). Sure, Oliver tried hard to work on that in recent times, but Taylor's more "zoomed out" picture of refereeing in addition to his better disciplinary control, charisma naturally aligns him to the more-challenging international matches.

    Taylor would really have to f*** up to miss the EURO now, I don't know if Elleray has enough influence to get Oliver there too.
     
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