2019-2020 UEFA Referee Discussion [Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by MassachusettsRef, Jun 3, 2019.

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  1. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Maybe it's just me, but I haven't seen an official on the elite list like Taylor be (in my opinion) pretty inconsistent in domestic matches while being so good in continental competitions. He's a completely different referee outside of the EPL.
     
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  2. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think Taylor suffers in England from being Mike Dean without the personality. He makes all the big calls (usually) and isn't afraid to upgrade or gamble on close decisions. Dean gets away with that because he's Dean--or, sometimes he gets more attention and criticism because he's Dean. Taylor just doesn't have that stature yet.

    The Oliver v Taylor battle for EURO 2020 is going to be fascinating to watch. Theoretically, there is room for them both, but they'd both have to perform almost flawlessly this season because unlike 2016, England isn't the #1 option for multiple referees (Netherlands is first, Spain second and possibly Germany third). Having eight referees from only four countries just might not be viable.

    Taylor truly does seem to be in pole position and perhaps deservedly so. Oliver is going to have to referee himself in and, perhaps, hope that Taylor slips up.
     
  3. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This was a pretty remarkable article, particularly given the card count and the fact Ajax had a player sent off. Mateu Lahoz appears to have an amazing ability to be both eccentric/demonstrative, punish misconduct consistently, AND have the soft skills that are often lacking when one or both of those first qualities are present.
     
  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord


    Why was the VAR not used here? Why only for seeing offside when he doesn't interfere with play?
     
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  5. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    This is a referee who Jose Mourinho would like to see in the La Liga every game despite sending off Iker Casillas back in their time with Real Madrid, so he certainly has some unique abilities...
     
  6. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I don't have the clip, but would welcome some of the experts thoughts on why the Huntelaar goal was disallowed. The TNT feed said that Veltman was judged to be offsides but he didn't figure in the play at all and pretty much just stood in place after the ball was kicked. If this was the call VAR got it wrong.
     
  7. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I would have said no chance, but I now really think there might be a strong possibility that we won't see a red card given via VAR in the CL this group stage.

    It should be statistically impossible to go 48 matches without producing a red card via VAR, but we've gone through a men's and women's World Cup and an entire CL knockout stage without one being shown via VAR so there is a could chance that it could happen.
     
  8. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think it's possible, but unlikely. The fact that it's possible, though, suggests UEFA is going to be a bit closer to the EPL than other domestic competitions insofar as VAR interventions go.
     
  9. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This one is actually relatively straightforward. Of course, it's also the sort of call that would NEVER get called without VAR. So it goes back to the central question of why we're using VAR to get things that are "clearly wrong" when they were never "clearly wrong" before. Alas...

    Here's the clip: https://streamable.com/13idp

    The Ajax attacker is in an offside position. He makes physical contact with the defender who otherwise would have had a chance to make a play on the ball. It has to be offside for interfering with an opponent once it's caught.
     
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  10. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    On the possible RC, here's the clip:

    https://streamable.com/omy15

    Yes, I have a red card in real-time. Yes, I have a red card when looking at the slo-mo video. In a world where VAR is being conservatively applied, I get the argument for non-intervention, though. This isn't deliberate VC. The player goes into a challenge that he can win in a poor manner, but he isn't looking to hurt the opponent with a ton of force. The challenge is aimed right where the ball was prior to the defender's intervention and the APOEL player doesn't really have time to adjust.

    Is it a red card in an instructional setting? Absolutely. Can you make an argument that there is enough mitigation that yellow is acceptable? Yes. And therein lies one of the main problems with VAR. We have challenges like this that probably should be red cards but can be yellow cards. Meaning, you know, there is some level of subjectivity. Yet VAR is advertised as being able to address objective situations.
     
  11. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Thanks!!! When you look at it in slo-mo and stop the stream you clearly see the violation by Veltman. It was complicated yesterday watching the match as the announcers (also on this stream) had no clue about what was going on. It makes sense and in this case VAR did the right thing.
     
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  12. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  13. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Just when I thought I had seen it all and now this one takes the cake. I'm watching the stream of the Antwerp-AZ match. Antwerp went a man down in the first half with the match at 1-1 so they had the away goal if they could keep a clean sheet. They did one better, they got a goal to go up 1-0 which should have seen them through. The striker ran off the field and climbed the fence to celebrate with the supporters. When he returned to the pitch he was given a 2nd YC, I guess for time wasting or something so they go down two men. AZ send it into extra time with a goal at the 90 minute mark. Totally bizarre..
     
  14. Wow, is a Dutch team match going to break the Orange-Portugal cards record?
     
  15. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    10 YCs in the match so far with the 2nd 15 minutes of extra time to go. Two Antwerp players sent off for 2nd YCs. Amazing.
     
  16. According to this it's already 15 YC.

    103'
    Arbiter Tasos Sidiropoulos trok al 15 keer de gele kaart (inclusief twee tweede gele prenten). Het record staat op 20 en dat werd neergezet in de wedstrijd tussen Oranje en Portugal.

    103'
    Arbitrator Tasos Sidiropoulos has already drawn the yellow card 15 times (including two second yellow cards). The record is at 20 and that was set in the game between the Orange team and Portugal.
     
  17. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
     
  18. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    That's probably correct. I was just looking at the US ESPN match summary site which was likely wrong.
     
  19. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    @code1390 - yes, that was probably the call for the 2nd YC. He climbed onto the perimeter fence to salute the supporters. It's likely that he didn't know that was something that deserved a caution.
     
  20. upload_2019-8-29_22-19-51.png
    :D
     
  21. Geko

    Geko Member

    Sacremento Geckos
    United States
    May 25, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Alkmaar tie it up at the last moment and then proceed to crush them in ET. Heartbreaking for the Belgians.
     
  22. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Oliver could have played advantage here. It’s a hard call and I highly doubt I would have seen it in real-time, but these are the types of things that could lead to separation with Taylor.

    https://streamable.com/61bya

    And this might have been outside the area.

    https://streamable.com/j2w8e
     
  23. gaolin

    gaolin Member+

    Apr 21, 2019
    How do they determine the foul location? From where the foul originated or ended?
     
  24. sulfur

    sulfur Member+

    Oct 22, 2007
    Ontario, Canada
    If it's holding, where it ends (unless it passed through the PA, in which case, most serious location).

    If it's another contact foul, where the offensive contact occurs initially.
     
  25. sulfur

    sulfur Member+

    Oct 22, 2007
    Ontario, Canada
    Agreed -- great opportunity to delay, but definitely a tough one to hold that whistle one -- which I think is the biggest problem. We see clear DOGSO, we tend to whistle too fast, same thing with penalties.

    And yes, I may've seen that possible advantage, but likely wouldn't have been able to stop myself from whistling it down.

    Unfortunately, we've got a terrible angle on this one, but Oliver's got a great angle, almost looking down the PA line. The clutching and grabbing definitely starts outside, but I've got a gut feeling that it carries onto the PA line as the two players move down the line.
     

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