2019-2020 CONCACAF Nations League

Discussion in 'Canada' started by Polygong, Mar 28, 2019.

  1. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Nassau County, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    With two wins, USA will win the goal differential tiebreaker unless both are by 1. If USA wins by 1, Canada will need to hope Cuba can get a point or lose by 1 against USA in Cayman Islands. This could be a situation where the tiebreaker matters. Like in World Cup Qualifying, the tiebreaker is goal differential. If the tiebreaker was head-to-head like in the UEFA Champions League, Canada could clinch the group on head-to-head tiebreaker with a loss by 1.

    https://www.ussoccer.com/stories/20...final-usmnt-roster-for-nations-league-matches has USA's roster, which doesn't have Christian Pulisic. Matt Turner of New England, who is 25 without any caps, made the roster as the third goalkeeper behind Brad Guzan and Sean Johnson.
     
  2. adrenaline11

    adrenaline11 Member+

    Jul 29, 2010
    Toronto
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Pathetic performance. I didn't expect us to win but this was a dreadful showing.
     
  3. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Nassau County, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Calculations at http://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/2022-wc-qualification-tracking-the-rankings-r.2106189/page-7 have you 9 points behind El Salvador, who can get more points when they host Dominican Republic tomorrow. El Salvador got a 90+1st minute goal to win 1-0 hosting Montserrat, and the difference between a win and a draw was 0.5*25 = 12.5. If USA beats Cuba, your only chance to reach the Hexagonal are friendlies by you and/or El Salvador. There's a lot of time to decide on games before March and June, and doing calculations about what strength of opponent you want to play in friendlies is useful. Friendlies have a weight of 10 (5 when not in FIFA matchdays), compared to 25 for Nations League games. A friendly win over a team with the same amount of FIFA Ranking points is 0.5*10 = 5, so all other things equal having 2 such wins will get you to the Hexagonal. If El Salvador beats Dominican Republic, their lead will be more than 10. It's unlikely that any team will enter or exit the top six other than if you pass El Salvador.
     
  4. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Nassau County, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Broadcaster John Strong said Weston McKennie scored 32 seconds in to USA's win hosting Cuba. Tonight, Josh Sargent scored 36 seconds in. It's still 0-1 in the 23rd minute. Cuba has 1 shot, which was not on goal.
     
  5. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Nassau County, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    USA won 4-0, so you finished second. You should still be happy to have 9 of 12 points.
     
  6. Ciro Di Marzio

    SSC Napoli
    Italy
    Jun 28, 2019
    Scampia
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Disappointing to lose the way we did. Conceding a goal in the opening 2 mins is atrocious and set us up for failure.

    Regardless, the entire qualification for the hex was a complete joke.

    Both Jamaica and El Salvador qualified for the Hex without playing a top 15 ranked nation in Concacaf ... How the fcuk does that even make sense?

    Better yet, El Salvador jumped over Canada by beating the 19th, 26th and 35th ranked teams in Concacaf. Canada collects 3 wins of 4 games from the teams ranked 2nd and 13th in Concacaf and we get passed.

    Jamaica who was ranked 6th when the draws were made, didn't have 1 game against a top 20 Concacaf nation.


    To make all of this even better, the head of Concacaf, Victor Montagliani. Is a fcuking Canadian .
     
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  7. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Nassau County, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Where do you get 13th from? Cuba is 26th in Concacaf in the FIFA Rankings.

    http://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/2022-wc-qualification-tracking-the-rankings-r.2106189/page-8 says El Salvador leads you by 15 points. El Salvador will play a friendly against Iceland in January. Friendlies not in FIFA periods have a weight of 5, which is half of the weight of friendlies in FIFA periods, and one-fifth the weight of Nations League games.

    I was thinking about if you could have been better off losing a Nations League Qualifying game to get in League B like Jamaica and El Salvador. Your closest Qualifier was a 1-0 win at St. Kitts and Nevis. Changing that to a 1-0 loss would have still gotten you in League A on goal differential. Of course losing that would have hurt your FIFA Ranking. Your best Nations League Qualifying outcome in terms of reaching the Hexagonal could have been to lose to French Guiana, which doesn't count in the FIFA Rankings, draw at St. Kitts and Nevis, win the other two qualifiers, and win six League B games.
     
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  8. Ciro Di Marzio

    SSC Napoli
    Italy
    Jun 28, 2019
    Scampia
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    At the time of creation, Concacaf used their own format , the Concacaf Ranking Index which had Cuba ranked as the 13th best team and it's how they determined who would draw who for the Qualifying format (To Qualify for League A, League B and League C). Of the 8 top seeded teams, Jamaica, Canada, Haiti, El Salvador, Martinique, Cuba, French Guiana and Guadeloupe. Only 4 of the 8 actually came top 6 to get placed in League A. The 4 were Canada, Haiti, Martinique and Cuba.

    They used the Concacaf Rankings to determine the qualifying for League A, League B and League C. Yet when the groups were actually formed they used the FIFA Rankings and not the Concacaf Rankings to round out the top 6 who would make the Hex.

    Had they continued to use the Concacaf Rankings like they originally used, the top 6 would be: Mexico, United States, Costa Rica, Honduras, Panama and Canada.

    Jamaica and El Salvador would've been 30 and 80 points back and out of contention. Which makes most sense. Not to mention they had used the Concacaf Rankings for qualification, Concacaf rankings to form the seeding of the groups in the Concacaf Nations League but then to form the Hex they used the FIFA rankings.


    Why use your rankings throughout the entire process only to switch it for the final calculation? Especially when the ranked teams would change.
     
  9. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Nassau County, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    FIFA made a rule that World Cup Qualifying seeding can only use the FIFA Rankings, although they may have abolished that rule for the UEFA Nations League. UEFA used FIFA Rankings for World Cups 2014 and 2018 Qualifying while using their rankings for Euro 2016 Qualifying in between.
     
    blacksun repped this.
  10. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    According to Herdman (sorry, it was in an article some time ago and I don't have a link) teams were originally told the World Cup qualifying would be based on CONCACAF rankings. Canada based its decisions regarding games on that only to have things switched later.
     
  11. adrenaline11

    adrenaline11 Member+

    Jul 29, 2010
    Toronto
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    CONCACAF needs to make a decision: Either they allow non-FIFA nations to participate and only use the CONCACAF rankings to determine seeding or they stop allowing non-FIFA nations to participate and only use the FIFA rankings.
     
    Insigne4BalonD'or and slaminsams repped this.
  12. newtex

    newtex Member+

    May 25, 2005
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    For which competition? CONCACAF is not going to exclude the non-FIFA members from the Nations League and they can't allow them into World Cup qualifying.

    CONCACAF only used the CONCACAF rankings for the Nations League. I don't see the paradox. If they told teams that the CONCACAF rankings would be used for the World Cup qualifying then that was a mistake. FIFA has never allowed that.
     
  13. Insigne4BalonD'or

    SSC Napoli
    Italy
    Apr 6, 2017
    In Hiding with Sal's mom
    What you're saying is completely correct. I think the discrepancy is over the fact that the Concacaf rankings formed the Nations League groups, when teams got easier draws (Such as El Salvador and Jamaica being in League B) it allowed them to gain more points than had they been in League A which in turn made them qualify as a top 6 nation for the World Cup qualifying hex.
     
  14. newtex

    newtex Member+

    May 25, 2005
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    I get that it gave an advantage to some teams but it is hard to see any intent there for what turned into a an abbreviated WCQ system.

    Which was surely a one-time thing. It is very unlikely that CONCACAF will ever use the qualifying system that they are using for the 2022 World Cup qualifying again. For 2026 and beyond they are going to have to come up with something completely different.

    So why talk about being consistent with the rankings for the CNL versus WCQ when we have no idea what the system will be in the future?
     
    Insigne4BalonD'or repped this.
  15. Insigne4BalonD'or

    SSC Napoli
    Italy
    Apr 6, 2017
    In Hiding with Sal's mom
    Oh I agree that there was no intent to purposely help El Salvador or Jamaica and also that there was no intent to harm Canada's chances of qualification for the Hex, it's just that the nations in question were given 2 years to try and raise their FIFA Ranking to get into the Hex.

    I also agree with your statement about qualification for 2022 and 2026 my post was just about why the process to qualify for the hex was ridiculous for this World Cup qualifying year and why other fans are also (and rightfully) upset with how the qualification is set up.
     
  16. newtex

    newtex Member+

    May 25, 2005
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    I'm with you there. This qualifying process is terrible. CONCACAF got themselves into a bind time-wise and it is hard to figure out a different system that would work perfectly with the available dates but they should have done better.
     
    Insigne4BalonD'or repped this.
  17. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    My question is why? They weren't expecting a World Cup in 2022 and were surprised by its sudden appearance on the schedule?
     
    Insigne4BalonD'or repped this.
  18. adrenaline11

    adrenaline11 Member+

    Jul 29, 2010
    Toronto
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    I think the way to do it is to have a moratorium on non-FIFA members competing in any CONCACAF competitions. Nations who have the misfortune of drawing a non-FIFA member in Gold Cup or Nations League play shouldn't be punished by having those results wiped off the board when it's time to seed teams using the FIFA rankings. I would say this even if CONCACAF was using the old WCQ format.

    If the reason why they're allowed to participate in CONCACAF sanctioned events is because the confederation wants to grow the game then I completely understand. But I think that the best way to help them is to help them gain membership into FIFA so that they can play more matches and also apply for some FIFA development money.

    I get that but the World Cup is your bread and butter. CONCACAF knows that if they want soccer in this region to improve, if they want to gain more slots in future World Cups, if they want to grow attendances, sponsorship, viewship, etc. they have to put their best foot forward. So if they're going to have a format where the premise is that the best six teams in the confederation are in the Hex, even if this is a one-off, then they shouldn't have competitions where FIFA members don't always play other FIFA members.

    Or, they could have added a round before the Hex for teams to play their way into the Hex and not use the rankings as the only determinant. You could even give the top two in the rankings a bye into the Hex so they can play friendlies against better teams. I would argue that having the middle class in CONCACAF such as Canada, Jamaica, ES, Curacao, etc. play each is better than this one-off where they're beating up on Aruba and Barbados for a playoff vs. the fourth best team in the Hex.
     
    Ciro Di Marzio repped this.
  19. newtex

    newtex Member+

    May 25, 2005
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    The non-FIFA members of CONCACAF:

    Bonaire - recently separated from Netherlands Antilles, just became a full CONCACAF member in 2014, is working on FIFA membership but their status within the Kingdom of the Netherlands makes it difficult.

    Sint Maarten - was also a part of the Netherlands Antilles, became a full member of CONCACAF in 2013, has independent status with the Netherlands so they could join FIFA but I don't think they have applied.

    French Guiana, Guadeloupe, Martinique, Saint Martin - overseas departments of France, France considers them in integral part of the French nation and will not let them join FIFA.

    I guess you could put pressure on Sint Maarten but the French possessions? Telling them they are out of CONCACAF competitions until they join FIFA is a death sentence. It is not going to happen.
     
  20. adrenaline11

    adrenaline11 Member+

    Jul 29, 2010
    Toronto
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Why should it matter to CONCACAF? I don't see what the confederation gains by keeping them in.

    Recall the Florent Malouda fiasco of 2017. You had a non-FIFA member forfeit what should've been a draw by fielding an ineligible player, thereby benefiting their opponents with three points when it should've been just one. Meanwhile, they continue to collect money from CONCACAF through the Nations League, Gold Cup, and various youth competitions while anybody who plays them cannot gain or lose FIFA points.
     
  21. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Nassau County, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The World Cup was expected, but Concacaf didn't have experience in having matchdays for WCQs and the Nations League.

    If those islands can't participate in Concacaf competitions, it eliminates everyone's national team hopes because it will be hard (maybe impossible) for them to impress the French or Dutch national team, not to mention the time and money it takes to fly from the Caribbean to Europe. It's one thing to choose to play for a club that isn't near a player's national team. It's another thing to be born across the Atlantic from the only national team a player could play for.
     

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