2019-20 Development Academy

Discussion in 'Youth National Teams' started by TheFalseNine, Jul 17, 2019.

  1. bpet15

    bpet15 Member+

    Oct 4, 2016
    I am trying to understand your position on this. Apologies in advance for the questions.

    If I am understanding correctly, you want a team in each age group that competes in the DA but also want a team specifically for those that have pro ambitions aged U15-U19? Wouldn't every kid between 15 and 19 have pro ambitions? How would these kids be chosen?

    Wouldn't the current U19 team as it is used right now (or with minor adjustments) solve this problem? As long as the club is putting the best available players, regardless of age on the U19 team, that would be a really good level.

    Again, apologies if I am not understanding you correctly. But I just don't see how a U15-U19 specific league solves anything.

    I fail to see how putting together a team of U15-U19 players with pro ambitions would be at a higher level than the current U19 set up.

    I think we are set up to accomplish everything you want as it is currently. If there is a pro caliber player in a non-MLS or non-USL club, they should get to one of those if that is the path they choose. We already know that going to a MLS or USL club muddies the water if wanting to go to Europe, so staying at a non-MLS or USL club will always be an option.
     
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  2. ielag

    ielag Member+

    Jul 20, 2010
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  3. manutd02

    manutd02 Member

    Oct 23, 2002
    Where to even begin. Let's start with the USL Academy Cup. To think the level is anywhere near DA is laughable. I was at the event and the level was largely mediocre at best with the exception of a few teams. I believe someone stated that these USL teams aren't far off MLS and that couldn't be further from the truth. Yes there are a couple that do a very good job ( STL FC and SAFC. Jury still out on Phoenix Rising. They have some decent teams but this team they sent was an all star team of their best players and FC Tuscon's. They also have 0 history of developing pros at this moment. Orange County was just an all star team and doesn't, currently, have a true academy). The rest at the event were no where close.

    Regarding the future plans for the USL Academy League. They will struggle to get this off the ground. There aren't enough USL teams running a proper academy for clubs like STL FC, SAFC, NCFC etc to pull out of DA for it. I would question whether the level would be good enough for USL teams in the Boys ECNL being will to pull out of that league.

    The age group for the league also doesn't truly make sense. This is how it should be operating anyways. If a player is good enough (and has the emotional and cognitive maturity to deal with playing up multiple ages) they are pretty much playing up at most DA programs. Very few including the amateur DA clubs are holding players back. Secondly, to input a quota is asinine. Again, the level at these USL clubs is mediocre at best. For anyone that watched the event, there were 2 maybe 3 players that had any true pro potential and for whom playing up would be necessary and important. The rest do not have these kind of players and to then enforce a quota for players that don't have the ability to play up is not serving those players. Not to mention the idea of a quota in general doesn't make sense. Competition drives player development. A player shouldn't be playing up to fill a quota. He should play up because he is at the level and is better than players older than him. For some reason everyone expects that each academy should be filled with players playing up when in truth this practice should be limited. Go and look at rosters for Barcelona, Ajax or any of the top pro academies in the world and you won't see tons of players playing up and when you do see it, it is almost always U17 and up when players have finished maturing. There is the rare special talent where this is happening sooner, or at younger ages an extremely athletic player who must play up but this practice isn't nearly as prevalent as people think.

    Moving on to the idea that amateur clubs should be passing on their top players to pro clubs I also firmly refute, in this country. There are 3, MLS Academies at most that I would ever allow my son to leave home for and even then due to the nature of MLS I wouldn't allow it. Nearly all of these MLS Academies are poor developmental environments. Their success is largely due to the accumulation of talent rather than actual development occurring. I would also argue that the best developmental coaches in this country aren't at MLS Academies. They're at amateur clubs where they are grinding due to having significantly less resources than MLS Academies. From my experience many of these MLS Academies are lazy and blinded by the fact that they have accumulated a lot of talent and due to that blindness and a system that places them at the top of the pyramid as a matter of status quo rather than having earned their way there, they aren't doing nearly well enough with the talent they have. I would also argue that in many ways there is more opportunity for truly top level talent at non MLS Academies. All amateur DAs know they must provide professional pathways and many are eager and willing to develop multiple pathways. As it is currently operating, MLS is the furthest thing from an ideal place for young talented players and while I understand Europe is not the answer for all players, our truly top players should be headed that way and the amateur DAs are more than willing to provide opportunities. Far too many families and players are making decisions based on labels rather than an informed decision making. In many ways, this isn't their fault as they are unaware of a better option. All they can see is "pro academy" and the assumption is that because it is pro it must be better. That same assumption is tossed around here with an alarming regularity

    Now please understand, I believe that ideally the best talent should be in a professional environment. Unfortunately, there is next to no evidence that the pro environments in this country are better than the top amateur environments. There should be a massive outcry for MLS Academies to be doing better!

    Sorry for the rant, but the amount of uninformed non-sense thrown around here is frustrating. I wish I could provide clear ideas on how we should move forward because there does need to be an evolution for how youth development works in this country. But it is massively complex in this country ( that being a major issue in and of itself) and I have little hope that we will ever get it right. It will improve (despite those that criticize it, the DA has improved the environment massively but there are still inherent issues that hold it back) and anyone in the environment can feel a shift coming. Whether that shift will truly be based on improving the environment as opposed to controlling the environment remains to be seen.
     
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  4. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    If there's so much uninformed non-sense and you know what you are saying, why don't you participate in the discussions and explain why you are right and others are wrong? Most people who post here are fans, not professional coaches or scouts. I don't think most people would object if someone who does the job for a living (I suspect you do that if you have this attitude) was willing to explain where the fan opinions are wrong.
     
  5. David Kerr

    David Kerr Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2019
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To just sum it up. I want our best youth prospects to play at a higher level than the DA. I think this should be done by the MLS teams having their own academy league that mirrors what the USL is doing. Let the best kids stand out in the DA and then be moved into the pro academy teams where the level will be higher and they can train with pros daily and sign a professional contract. I like the DA but for our best players it is not a high enough level and lots of coaches have come out saying this.
     
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  6. David Kerr

    David Kerr Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2019
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I really do appreciate this insight. If you are so fed up with opinions on here then speak up more. This website isnt supposed to be a "I'm right and you're wrong" website it is meant for debate and discussion. If you feel like you have some insight on things then share it more often!
     
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  7. bpet15

    bpet15 Member+

    Oct 4, 2016
    #632 bpet15, Dec 20, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2019
    This is literally what happens on a daily basis right now, especially at those MLS clubs that have a USL team.

    We can debate the merits and structure of DA all day long, because like you, most of us think there is a lot of room for improvement.
     
  8. David Kerr

    David Kerr Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2019
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Let's just be thankful about all of the progress made in the USA development landscape in the last 5 years. Still a lot of improvements needed but we are making progress for some long term success
     
  9. Baysider

    Baysider Member+

    Jul 16, 2004
    Santa Monica
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    I think people are overly optimistic about the USL academy league. My expectation is that these leagues are pay-to-play. In fact, the announcement indicated that some of the USL teams would be in partnership with existing youth teams, which mostly means slapping a USL brand on a team to make it more popular. More money spent on development would be good, but a lot of this just seems like marketing hype.
     
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  10. jeff_adams

    jeff_adams Member+

    Dec 16, 1999
    Monterey, Ca
    I think one of the big advantages of the USL teams is the ability to play for other club teams at the same time. More practices, more games, more exposure. High school and DA restrictions really frustrate players and parents so kudos to USL for recognizing that.
     
  11. David Kerr

    David Kerr Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2019
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Unfortunately unless one of us wins the lottery and funds all of the academies pay to play will always be a thing. Just a reality for these clubs unless a wonderkid is produced there.
     
  12. upprv

    upprv Member

    Aug 4, 2004
    Any links to the USL academy cup with rosters or scores?
     
  13. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
     
  14. focusondev

    focusondev Member

    Barcelona
    United States
    Nov 15, 2019
    I appreciate all voices on this forum. I will be forthright and say I don't fully agree with all that was said in this post but I am interested in hearing more facts behind some of your points. Please explain the "hate" behind the MLS academies, specifically referencing this quote: "
    As it is currently operating, MLS is the furthest thing from an ideal place for young talented players and while I understand Europe is not the answer for all players, our truly top players should be headed that way and the amateur DAs are more than willing to provide opportunities. Far too many families and players are making decisions based on labels rather than an informed decision making. In many ways, this isn't their fault as they are unaware of a better option. All they can see is "pro academy" and the assumption is that because it is pro it must be better. That same assumption is tossed around here with an alarming regularity

    Now please understand, I believe that ideally the best talent should be in a professional environment. Unfortunately, there is next to no evidence that the pro environments in this country are better than the top amateur environments. "
     
  15. focusondev

    focusondev Member

    Barcelona
    United States
    Nov 15, 2019
    keeping this light..... interested in hearing everyone's opinion on what are the 5 best MLS academies and the 5 best non-MLS academies. Or if you prefer to just rank the top 10 best academies (MLS/non-MLS), that is fine too. I haven't seen a ranking like this for a couple of years. If anyone has, please share.
     
  16. bpet15

    bpet15 Member+

    Oct 4, 2016
    I am not immediately inclined to disagree with you. I have been open about MLS Academies and how I think the vast majority are considerably over rated.

    The Federation that runs our youth league has done everything in their power to separate the MLS Academies from the non-MLS Academies. I would like to hear what you think are the most important aspects in developing talent within a clubs Academy. From there, I will have a better understanding as to what angle you are coming from and whether or not I fully agree with what you are saying.
     
  17. Deevee

    Deevee Member

    Arsenal
    Germany
    Oct 27, 2019
    From my experience, I would say the MLS Academies do not do a great job developing the younger aged players (U14 and younger). They look to identify the few players they see with potential and look to replace the rest of the players. Non-MLS Academies do not have the luxury to just replace 8 or more players every year and develop all the players they have, and tend to develop younger players better than the MLS (IMO)

    For U16 and older the MLS Academies have opportunities for development the non-MLS Academies can't match (training with the 1st team, playing USL, etc.). Also, at those ages, they players have exposure to and are coached by the best coaches in the Academy and the pro coach staff.

    If you do the research you will find a lot of top players that were not with MLS Academies until they were 16 or 17, and played with a non-MLS Academy before that.

    Obviously there are exceptions to this, but that tends to be what I have seen with players I know.
     
  18. focusondev

    focusondev Member

    Barcelona
    United States
    Nov 15, 2019
    I was quoting our friend "manutd02". They were not my views. I am interested in understanding his point of view further. Apologies for the misunderstanding.
     
  19. focusondev

    focusondev Member

    Barcelona
    United States
    Nov 15, 2019
    Could the reason why "a lot of top players that were not with MLS Academies until they were 16 or 17, and played with a non-MLS Academy before that", be because those players did not live close to an MLS Academy when they were younger and once they bacame of a mature age, got recruited, and moved to an MLS academy?
     
  20. Deevee

    Deevee Member

    Arsenal
    Germany
    Oct 27, 2019
    Could be with some, but depending on the cities, that is not always the case. The Concord Fire U17 DA team that made the DA Finals last summer, had several former Altlanta United Academy players that left a couple of years ago because they were not getting development they needed.

    The Solar U17 DA team that won the title also had a few players that left FCD at 13 and 14 for development reasons as well.
     
  21. bpet15

    bpet15 Member+

    Oct 4, 2016
    I used to think the same exact thing, so I know where you are coming from. However, I think this is more perception than anything. That perception comes from talent at these younger ages still be spread out. Also, at the younger ages, a player or two can have a much bigger impact on results than is possible at the older ages.

    I feel this is perception as well, but still well rooted. It is perceived they are the best coaches, because they are know routinely beating the non-MLS teams after that talent consolidation has occurred and most of the talent is at the MLS club.

    I think we give too much credit and too much blame in most circumstances. If you sit back and look at the big picture, I am not sure that MLS or non-MLS is the segregator. Let's look at a few examples.by going back to the most recent "best clubs in the US" list I could find. This was from 2009 and really before MLS Academies had any structure like they have today.

    The Dallas Texans were basically the FC Dallas of this era. They were producing top college and professional players, winning National Championships and placing all kinds of kids on YNT's. Chicago Magic had the run of Chicago, Real So Cal were doing really good things in LA area, FC Delco in PA was churning out players and competing on a National stage. PDA, Concorde Fire, Real Colorado, Solar were all clubs that were being recognized near the top of our youth structure.

    In my opinion, not much has changed other than the names on the shirts. FC Dallas took most of the talent from the Texans and is now the barometer. FC Delco and PDA has had the Union come in and do the same thing in that area. LAFC and Galaxy have replaced some of the older clubs and now are the draw for the good players. Atlanta United took over from Concorde Fire and now takes most of the best Atlanta talent.

    I don't think this has to do with coaching, facilities, DA, MLS, non-MLS or anything else. The bottom line is top talent always wants to play with and train with other top talent. It doesn't matter what color the shirt is, what kind of condition the field is in, or who is holding the clipboard. This is key to understanding the really elite players. Of course, playing for free, traveling for free and some of the ancillary things have enabled this talent to even be more concentrated.

    I am not naïve to the fact that there are a bunch of other factors that make these clubs and players good, including coaching, facilities and other things. But if you compare those clubs we think are the best today, there was another clubs of its equal just 10-12 years ago in the same city.
     
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  22. The Hideaway

    The Hideaway Member

    Chelsea
    United States
    Sep 23, 2019
    The problem is playing time. DA limits the number of games. MLS academies roster 20-22 kids per age group. Some kids develop on different timelines. If your kid is no. 16 or 17 on an MLS DA roster, playing time will be scant. I personally think this type of kid develops better at a non-MLS DA as a starter. Many times it is just late physical development and no other reason. Point is this: DA games are few to begin with. MLS DAs load up their rosters with 20-22 top players. And then 7-10 of those kids play 40 minutes of month. That is no way to develop kids at ages 12-15. So, yes, better off in a non-MLS DA program as a starter. Now, if MLS DA found other ways to get kids minutes, things would be different. But this would require DA allowing either multiple teams per age group or permitting non-league participation in a much broader sense.
     
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  23. focusondev

    focusondev Member

    Barcelona
    United States
    Nov 15, 2019
    Thanks for the example. Sometimes I find those people who leave the MLS Academy to go to a non-MLS Academy are those who didn't make the MLS Team or were told they were going to play a minor role on the team so they move to the non-MLS club. This would make sense for the player to move so they can get the play time they desire at the non-MLS club. Also, there are some cases where the player may have European aspirations and want to get out of the MLS academy ties and go to the non-MLS club so the transfer would be easier. However, your Solar U17 example is a good one.
     
  24. focusondev

    focusondev Member

    Barcelona
    United States
    Nov 15, 2019
    I agree with your points and have found it to be true.
     
  25. The Hideaway

    The Hideaway Member

    Chelsea
    United States
    Sep 23, 2019
    I just think if an MLS DA picks a kid, it's because they see something of potential value in that kid. Sometimes for that value to blossom it takes years, but the payoff could be interesting, with patience. But you put kids in a league situation (DA) in which playing time is so difficult to obtain, and the decision making process under game time scenarios that is crucial to development of intelligent, capable players, never really takes off. you wonder why they invested in the player to begin with? why not select 14 per age group and invite 8 to train a couple of days a week? it makes no sense to me. it's like they pay for the bench for absolutely no reason and do not do the kids any favors either (other than free stuff...)
     
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