2018 MLS Week 4 Referee Discussion

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by bhooks, Mar 20, 2018.

  1. bhooks

    bhooks Member

    Apr 14, 2015
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    The assignments for Week 4 of the 2018 Major League Soccer season:

    03/24/2018

    New England Revolution v New York City FC
    Gillette Stadium (1:30PM ET)
    REF: JAIR MARRUFO
    AR1: KYLE ATKINS
    AR2: CAMERON BLANCHARD
    4TH: ROBERT SIBIGA
    VAR: CHRISTOPHER PENSO

    FC Dallas v Portland Timbers
    Toyota Stadium (3:30PM ET)
    REF: MARK GEIGER
    AR1: EDUARDO MARISCAL
    AR2: LOGAN BROWN
    4TH: ALLEN CHAPMAN
    VAR: EDVIN JURISEVIC

    Columbus Crew v D.C. United
    MAPFRE Stadium (6PM ET)
    REF: DREW FISCHER
    AR1: JASON WHITE
    AR2: DANNY THORNBERRY
    4TH: ALEX CHILOWICZ
    VAR: SILVIU PETRESCU

    New York Red Bulls v Minnesota United
    Red Bull Arena (7PM ET)
    REF: HILARIO GRAJEDA
    AR1: CRAIG LOWRY
    AR2: JONATHAN JOHNSON
    4TH: JOSE CARLOS RIVERO
    VAR: JORGE GONZALEZ

    Colorado Rapids v Sporting Kansas City
    Dick’s Sporting Goods Park (9PM ET)
    REF: SORIN STOICA
    AR1: ANDREW BIGELOW
    AR2: OSCAR MITCHELL-CARVALHO
    4TH: ALEJANDRO MARISCAL
    VAR: RICARDO SALAZAR

    Vancouver Whitecaps v LA Galaxy
    BC Place (10PM ET)
    REF: FOTIS BAZAKOS
    AR1: PETER BALCIUNAS
    AR2: ERIC WEISBROD
    4TH: BALDOMERO TOLEDO
    VAR: DAVID GANTAR
     
  2. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Match counts for this week's referees and assistant referees:

    NE vs NYC: J Marrufo - 224th [K Atkins - 52nd, C Blanchard - 42nd]
    DAL vs POR: M Geiger - 175th [E Mariscal - 56th, L Brown - 37th]
    CLB vs DC: D Fischer - 82nd [J White - 60th, D Thornberry - 49th]
    NYR vs MIN: H Grajeda - 157th [C Lowry - 357th, Jo Johnson - 69th]
    COL vs SKC: S Stoica - 72nd [A Bigelow - 50th, O Mitchell-Carvalho - 54th]
    VAN vs LAG: F Bazakos - 72nd [P Balciunas - 147th, E Weisbrod - 63rd]
     
  3. YoungRef87

    YoungRef87 Member

    DC United
    United States
    Jan 5, 2018
    Drew Fischer had an interesting no-call in the DC/Columbus game. Studs up challenge by a Crew player that had already been booked. The AR was right on top of it and no call was given. Columbus then goes down the field and scored. Of course, Ben Olsen goes nuts. Does anyone have an idea why this play did not go to video review?
     
  4. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Because 2nd yellows can't be reviewed, unless the VAR feels it was clear and obvious error to not give a straight red.
     
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  5. TheRealBilbo

    TheRealBilbo Member+

    Apr 5, 2016
    How far back can they go on play leading to a goal? After the challenge, the Crew took the ball straight down field, crossed it, and a one touch finish in the back of the net. Granted, the challenge was 100 yards from goal, but the goal was scored maybe 15 seconds after the challenge.
     
  6. YoungRef87

    YoungRef87 Member

    DC United
    United States
    Jan 5, 2018
    Ohhhhhhh. Thanks for the explanation @code1390!
     
  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Without seeing the play, that might not be the answer, though.

    If a suspected foul occurs at the beginning of (or during) the Attacking Phase of Play (APP) that leads to a goal or a penalty kick (or DOGSO call), then it is reviewable. That can mean something like a handball that leads directly to a goal, but it also can mean a foul that results in a change of possession that then leads toward a goal.

    The answer to the "how far back" question asked by @TheRealBilbo is "it's up to the referee and VAR" but it's supposed to be the phase of play while a team starts its move toward the opponent's penalty area. So a 90-yard counterattack can count, while 20 straight passes in the middle third with no real movement toward goal might not count.

    Again, though I didn't see the play yet, there are probably two viable answers. The first is that the VAR determined the foul did not occur during the APP. The second is that, though the alleged foul occurred during the APP, it was not deemed a "clear and obvious" foul by the VAR. The third option, of course, is that this got screwed up.
     
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  8. pr0ner

    pr0ner Member+

    Jan 13, 2007
    Alexandria, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I wonder if the play will show up on Instant Replay. When I was watching the game live on TV yesterday, my first thought for the challenge was that it was a foul - it was a pretty terrible looking tackle by Abubakar on Acosta (not just for the studs up stuff - it was just an ugly lunge period). Of course, the MLS highlights packages are terrible now and do not show the challenge that led to the Columbus counter.
     
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  9. YoungRef87

    YoungRef87 Member

    DC United
    United States
    Jan 5, 2018
    I’m still waiting for Simon Borg to make a triumphant return to the show. Probably won’t happen though. :(
     
  10. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Lawrence Olum wins the Doofus of the Week award for his idiotic attempt at a Hand of God goal for Portland against FC Dallas. Geiger nailed the call and showed no hesitation to issue the second caution.
     
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  11. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The fact that a player would even try this with VAR is incredible.
     
  12. TheRealBilbo

    TheRealBilbo Member+

    Apr 5, 2016
    The Crew were nice enough to post the video of the alleged foul on their Facebook page. Here is a link...



    The first view, the view of the challenge is blocked by a United player. The second, I can't tell if he gets the ball or the player, or both. The other question is whether this is reviewable as the attacking phase of play leading to a goal.

    The challenge occurs right in front of the AR who has the best view of the play.
     
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  13. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thanks. That is definitely the start of the APP and I would say with 99.9%+ certainty that it was reviewed. The answer, per the VAR, is that the a no-call on this incident did not constitute a "clear and obvious" error.

    Given the high standards for what is supposed to be a clear and obvious error, that is probably defensible (the one replay we get doesn't clearly show contact). But, of course, the two problems are that A) is the standard always going to be that high in other matches (it wasn't last year) and B) such a high standard doesn't change the fact that 90%+ of people watching would probably call that a foul and, therefore, not calling it when we now have the benefit of replay is bothersome for many.
     
  14. Battler

    Battler Member

    Aug 30, 2007
    Even if there is no contact made, this is easily an "attempts to trip" situation, isn't it? And if not that, seems to be a pretty simple claim for handling, right? I'm surprised the VAR didn't have the referee go to the monitor here (assuming he didn't since nobody has mentioned it).
     
  15. pr0ner

    pr0ner Member+

    Jan 13, 2007
    Alexandria, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, Fischer did not go to the monitor here at all.
     
  16. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Go take another look at Lamah's goal for Dallas. Maxi Urruti is in an offside position and has to dodge the ball on its way towards goal. Seems to me he interfered with the goalkeeper.
     
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  17. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    And under what provision of Law 11 is dodging the ball active involvement?

    I don't ask to be a smart apple, but because the ongoing narrowing of active involvement means we have to tie back to the specific provisions of the Law. The old "God test" (would it have been different if the player was mystically removed) doesn't cut it anymore. If it didn't touch him, it cannot be interfering with play. So you have to identify one of the four specific ways in which a OSP player can interfere with an opponent.
     
  18. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If he has to dodge the ball, it stands to reason that the offside player is blocking the line of sight of the goalkeeper, which would come under "interfering with an opponent."
     
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  19. Ghastly Officiating

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Oct 12, 2017


    I'll disagree with that. If you look at this highlight video at 0:49, this view really shows the only one blocking his sight at the time the ball is played is the defender. Watching the keeper, he has no hesitation for diving and his attempt to play the ball doesn't change when the attacker in an OSP jumps over the ball.
     
  20. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm sure that's why the goal wasn't overturned. It's not clear and obvious that the attacker's positioning really interfered with the goalkeeper. That said, I don't think the VAR overturns an offside call here, either, had one been made.
     
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  21. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    It's a good goal.Don't overthink things.

    As one poster on here said so eloquently a while back, "no one wants to see how smart you are."

    No one expects this goal to be disallowed.
     
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  22. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Another good point. No one for Portland seemed to think it should have been offside. That assumes anyone realized or suspected Urruti was in an OSP, but considering how often the defenders' arms go up when it's not even close, I'm sure someone noticed.

    But yeah, if the team supposedly interfered with isn't complaining, it's probably a good goal.
     
  23. rh89

    rh89 Member

    Sep 29, 2015
    OR
    Putting on my PTFC hat, I shouted at the TV this was offside during the game. Further, at least one local commentator is talking about it.
     
  24. pr0ner

    pr0ner Member+

    Jan 13, 2007
    Alexandria, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Instant Replay is finally up and addressed the Abubakar challenge on Acosta in the Columbus vs DC United game.

    https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2018/03/26/did-ben-olsen-have-right-be-arms-columbus-instant-replay

    It's the first play they discuss. They think it was a foul, think VAR should have been used, and Abubakar should have gotten a second yellow.

    It's also interesting to note that Abubakar didn't get the ball at all on the challenge, since Acosta nutmegged him prior to going flying to avoid getting hurt, unless you count the ball hitting his plant hand on the tackle as Abubakar getting the ball.
     
  25. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How often have you seen "attempting to trip" called at the professional level? And that's not a trick question. I know that, sometimes, it does get called. But with any sort of regular frequency? No. So saying that not calling such a foul is "clearly and obviously" wrong is a stretch.

    A claim, maybe, but to be honest I didn't even notice ball-hand contact when I watched it the first time. Again, doesn't seem like there is a case for clear and obvious handling.

    But that's the thing. The VAR is only supposed to have the referee go look at the monitor if the VAR already determined it was clearly and obviously a mistake to not call a foul. The system isn't designed, despite what we've seen in various places over the past year, for a "hey, this is debatable, you should come look at it." In this regard, if you accept Petrescu's determination that this was not clearly and obviously a foul, the system worked perfectly.

    Now, I can understand those who can't accept Petrescu's determination that this wasn't a clear and obvious mistake. I personally believe a foul should have been called on the field and I think I would lean toward determining it was clearly and obviously wrong if I was serving as VAR. This sort of incident is high on the list of things that I believe demonstrates the reach of VAR as it is currently constituted goes too far. This is reviewable, but maybe it shouldn't be. Because it opens up a whole can of worms on subjective foul decisions.

    The added bonus to this play is that, if a foul does get called via VR, there's really no plausible scenario for not giving a yellow card, which would have been a 2CT. So Petrescu's choice was to either let the goal stand for Columbus, despite there likely being a foul in the change of possession that led to that goal, or to recommend a review which would have led to a red card for Columbus if Fischer agreed with his recommendation. Is the game better or worse that we can now re-litigate these type of fouls? Is the referee's job harder or easier? These are legitimate questions that go far beyond the notion that access to technology inherently makes things better.
     
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