2018 MLS Week 34 Referee Discussion

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by Dayton Ref, Oct 16, 2018.

  1. Dayton Ref

    Dayton Ref Member+

    May 3, 2012
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    The assignments for Week 34 of the 2018 Major League Soccer season:

    10/17/2018

    Orlando City v Seattle Sounders
    Orlando City Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Mark Geiger
    AR1: Brian Poeschel
    AR2: Jose Da Silva
    4TH: Rubiel Vazquez
    VAR: Christopher Penso

    D.C. United v Toronto FC
    Audi Field (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Allen Chapman
    AR1: Corey Rockwell
    AR2: Jason White
    4TH: Marcos DeOliveira
    VAR: Edvin Jurisevic

    Vancouver Whitecaps v Sporting Kansas City
    BC Place (10PM ET)
    REF: Armando Villarreal
    AR1: Ian Anderson
    AR2: Chris Wattam
    4TH: Joseph Dickerson
    VAR: Tim Ford

    10/18/2018

    Real Salt Lake v New England Revolution
    Rio Tinto Stadium (9PM ET)
    REF: Jair Marrufo
    AR1: Jeffrey Greeson
    AR2: Adam Garner
    4TH: Nima Saghafi
    VAR: Alex Chilowicz

    10/21/2018

    Atlanta United v Chicago Fire
    Mercedes-Benz Stadium (3PM ET)
    REF: Drew Fischer
    AR1: Oscar Mitchell-Carvalho
    AR2: Cameron Blanchard
    4TH: Jose Carlos Rivero
    VAR: Allen Chapman

    D.C. United v New York City FC
    Audi Field (3PM ET)
    REF: Chico Grajeda
    AR1: Kyle Atkins
    AR2: Eric Weisbrod
    4TH: Christopher Penso
    VAR: Younes Marrakchi

    Montreal Impact v Toronto FC
    Stade Saputo (3PM ET)
    REF: Baldomero Toledo
    AR1: Corey Parker
    AR2: Andrew Bigelow
    4TH: Rubiel Vazquez
    VAR: Jorge Gonzalez

    Orlando City v Columbus Crew
    Orlando City Stadium (3PM ET)
    REF: Kevin Stott
    AR1: Kevin Klinger
    AR2: Eduardo Mariscal
    4TH: Marcos DeOliveira
    VAR: Caleb Mendez

    Philadelphia Union v New York Red Bulls
    Talen Energy Stadium (3PM ET)
    REF: Ted Unkel
    AR1: Adam Wienckowski
    AR2: Logan Brown
    4TH: Silviu Petrescu
    VAR: Jon Freemon

    FC Dallas v Sporting Kansas City
    Toyota Stadium (5PM ET)
    REF: Robert Sibiga
    AR1: Jason White
    AR2: Peter Manikowski
    4TH: Guido Gonzales Jr.
    VAR: Alex Chilowicz

    Houston Dynamo v Seattle Sounders
    BBVA Compass Stadium (5PM ET)
    REF: Dave Gantar
    AR1: Jeff Hosking
    AR2: Felisha Mariscal
    4TH: Victor Rivas
    VAR: Armando Villarreal

    Los Angeles FC v Vancouver Whitecaps
    Banc of California Stadium (5PM ET)
    REF: Nima Saghafi
    AR1: Corey Rockwell
    AR2: Mike Rottersman
    4TH: Ramy Touchan
    VAR: Jair Marrufo

    Minnesota United v LA Galaxy
    TCF Bank Stadium (5PM ET)
    REF: Alan Kelly
    AR1: Jeremy Hanson
    AR2: Matthew Nelson
    4TH: Fotis Bazakos
    VAR: Geoff Gamble

    Portland Timbers v Real Salt Lake
    Providence Park (5PM ET)
    REF: Ismail Elfath
    AR1: Ian Anderson
    AR2: Chris Wattam
    4TH: Alejandro Mariscal
    VAR: Edvin Jurisevic

    San Jose Earthquakes v Colorado Rapids
    Avaya Stadium (5PM ET)
    REF: Tim Ford
    AR1: Michael Kampmeinert
    AR2: Apolinar Mariscal
    4TH: Joseph Dickerson
    VAR: Christina Unkel
     
  2. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Mr. Fantastic gets his MLS debut in San Jose...
     
  3. YoungRef87

    YoungRef87 Member

    DC United
    United States
    Jan 5, 2018
    Is that his nickname or something?
     
  4. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's my nickname for him because I think he looks like Reed Richards from the Fantastic Four.
     
  5. YoungRef87

    YoungRef87 Member

    DC United
    United States
    Jan 5, 2018
    Haha cool!
     
  6. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Somebody please explain how Orlando's goal against Seattle was allowed to stand. The player receiving making the cross (Sutter) was clearly offside when he received the ball prior to making the cross, and not only did the AR fail to make the correct call on the pitch, but it wasn't even reviewed either by the VAR or by the CR (Geiger) on the field.
     
  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Are you basing your conclusion off the single angle the MLS site is currently showing on its website? Or were more angles presented?

    Because that’s not obviously offside. It might be offside. But it might not be. That angle is incredibly deceptive; look at the goal line and goal area line to try to figure out the proper offside line.
     
  8. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    upload_2018-10-17_21-40-56.png

    Maybe there is a different angle that shows it's closer than it looks, but this looks about as "clearly off" as you can have.

    You guys are more than welcome to draw in the lines, but this looks clearly off.

    Look at the penalty spot for reference. Deepest Seattle defender is not even with the penalty spot. The Orlando attacker is past the penalty spot and closer to the goal line.

    MLS VARs still having a hard time with offside... I have no idea this isn't offside.
     
  9. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Show that screenshot with the goal area line and the goal line, though. That alone makes it look infinitely closer.
     
  10. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    My issue isn't with the call on the field, since AR's have been instructed to keep the flag down if they are in doubt and let the play be reviewed by VAR afterwards.

    It's the fact that it wasn't even reviewed/looked at by VAR, or if it was, they still got the call wrong.

    Thankfully it didn't affect the outcome of the game, but it could have.
     
  11. Ghastly Officiating

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Oct 12, 2017
    This is my attempt at the fancy line drawing thing. I guessed a little on the defender's back foot positioning. It's a lot closer than it appears.
     

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  12. Dayton Ref

    Dayton Ref Member+

    May 3, 2012
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Why do I feel like he's going to be in for a surprise with a new nickname at his next PRO meeting?
     
  13. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Exactly. The assumption that the VAR got this wrong based on that one replay when they have access to a ton more camera angles is that... only an assumption.

    Again, this still may have been offside. You could show me modeling that puts this a few inches offside. But it also could have been onside. Will be interested to learn more about it.
     
  14. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    I don't believe that is the instruction at all. The instruction is to delay the OS flag so that an erroneous OS call does not prevent a goal. If the AR thought it was OS, he should have raised the flag later.
     
  15. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I know there are multiple angles that the VAR has that we don't see.

    I'm even willing to concede that it is closer than it looks, but this still pretty obviously offside.

    Look at Dom Dwyer at the top (the actual goal scorer). We can all agree that he is clearly in an offside position in that picture.

    I think it is also safe to assume that #21 of Orlando is much closer to being even/inline with Dwyer than he is with any Seattle defender.

    Oh, and the line drawn lines up with #21's right foot (closer to the goal line) rather than his left foot.

    If another angle comes out that proves me wrong and shows me that it's closer or onside than this one, then I'll eat it, but right now this is as bad of a VAR offside miss in MLS as I've seen.
     
  16. Lucky Wilbury

    Lucky Wilbury Member

    Mar 19, 2012
    United States
    This is a very black-and-white statement.

    You're dealing with a low-positioned camera. Much like a high-positioned camera throws things off, a low-positioned camera does the same.

    Even with the rudimentary lines previously drawn, you're still saying it's "as bad of a VAR offside miss in MLS as I've seen"....wild.
     
  17. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    It will be interesting to see if this shows up in Week in Review . . . looks like a perfect candidate whether the call was right or wrong (and the AR week in review has not been shy about pointing out errors)
     
  18. Lucky Wilbury

    Lucky Wilbury Member

    Mar 19, 2012
    United States
    Disagree

    Agree

    Disagree

    ...As it should? What am I missing here in your comment?

    I think this angle is good enough, if you really study it instead of glancing at it, assuming that you can draw a vertical line that connects the SEA defenders, and claiming that is the correct perspective.

    Disagree

    You're glancing at it instead of analyzing it.


    Listen, this camera is about 16 yards out from the end line. It's low. You can't ignore any of that.

    The deepest defender for Seattle is the African-American player on the far side. If we don't agree on that, then please re-evaluate the images. He has a foot that is poking out around the other defender's (near the penalty spot) shorts.

    I feel strongly that if the 2-D red line is drawn to the 3-D ground, as @OffsideModeling does on twitter, it will show that the shoulder/foot of the defender is directly above the 2-D line that is drawn here.

    As in the Portland-Houston game a month ago, looks can be deceiving.
     

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  19. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My question last night was "how did Penso miss that?" Turns out he didn't miss anything.
     
  20. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
     
  21. rh89

    rh89 Member

    Sep 29, 2015
    OR
    I'll also add that I find these types of OS decisions the most difficult. Because the attacker is so close to you, you have to be 100% exact in your positioning. Any slight angle difference makes the offense (or lack thereof) much worse. So yes, VAR should have taken a look, but I feel for the AR in this situation.
     
  22. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    VAR did take a look as they do on all goals. Determination that it wasn’t clearly wrong to not call it offside. So no further action taken.

    Remember MLS doesn’t have the same technology as FIFA (though they do have more angles than what you’re seeing). This was possibly/probably offside. But if it’s not enough to overturn as clearly wrong, then the “check complete” conclusion is how this ends.

    AR made the expected call here. VAR worked correctly. It all still might have resulted in a decision that was technically wrong if the 100% objectively accurate decision can be determined, but that’s the system we have right now.
     
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  23. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't know what's in the pipeline as far as improving VAR, but technology like what was used at the World Cup for offside has to be in the conversation at minimum. Obviously, I don't know the cost or how many more cameras are required, but limited number of cameras is ALSO a problem that needs to be addressed so maybe we can fix both?

    Not that this sequence was handled incorrectly, but it doesn't sit well with a lot of people because it looks, at first glance, more obvious than the LA goal disallowed last week. But as we know, that offside was only considered clear and obvious because it just so happened to occur right next to the goal area line. We need to be able to make the objectively correct call more often than not, and currently we're very limited by the technology available or the good fortune of the position on the field or a national broadcast with a goal line cam, etc.
     
  24. sulfur

    sulfur Member+

    Oct 22, 2007
    Ontario, Canada
    For the umpteenth time, "clear and obvious" doesn't apply to offside calls. Those are supposed to be objective calls (ie, offside or not).
     
  25. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #25 MassachusettsRef, Oct 20, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2018
    Sort of. But referees and their instructors can only work with the technology and information available.

    In a case like the Galaxy situation, where the goal area and camera angle could inform the VAR that the goal scorer was 100% offside by about 2 inches, then the “objective” standard works.

    In this case, barring a conclusive camera angle PRO wants the “clearly wrong” standard to apply. They don’t want VARs guessing what the “correct” decision is if it can’t be objectively determined.

    That was @ManiacalClown ’s point.
     
    IASocFan repped this.

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