2018 MLS Week 11 Referee Discussion

And Petrescu is the latest referee to return to duty after clearing fitness a few weeks ago. I believe that is the last returnee you'll see for awhile.

These are likely Geiger's last whistles before the World Cup. Marrufo will have one next week and then they are tied up with FIFA duty (or they get a one week break before getting tied up--either way, it's effectively the same for their MLS work).

David Barrie as a FO is also noteworthy. I don't think it's a guarantee he'll get a whistle this summer, but his move from VAR to FO here certainly opens the door and I'd expect to see him again.

 

I would think so, yes. There used to be a lot of overlap with WUSA. Then there was overlap between MLS FOs and WPS CRs. But there really hasn't been a ton of MLS-NWSL overlap in the same season before, so I suspect you're right.

 

Based on the examples on the PRO AR website, this isn't even close. It's a deflection and offside.

 

I'm sure they will with the play of the week on the website. There might be something from the POTW during the last couple seasons, but I don't want to look back.

So here's two examples from PROs quiz and their reasoning.



This is a deliberate play and onside. PRO: "Defender moved towards the ball and there is distance and time for him to make a deliberate play."



This is a deflection and offside. PRO: "Defender did not have body control to play the ball and the ball comes to him. Yes, this is one of those that falls in the grey area, but a consideration of deliberate play is body control."


This falls between those two. For me, the clear sign is the defenders stretch. He doesn't have body control to make a deliberate play on the ball. Hopefully PRO covers it this week so I can get more confirmation.



Most referees I work with at the youth level have been calling this deliberate. Most information from PRO says this is a deflection. The deliberate/deflection debate is one of the big gaps of interpretation that I see between youth and pros.

 

If this is accurate on a wide-scale, then it's got to be one of the most counter intuitive things going on in refereeing. Youth players have less control over their bodies, less skill overall, and are less likely to be guilty of the sort of true misplay that should reset offside. It's the opposite for professional players.

To the play in question, I think it falls squarely in the grey area. For me, that lends itself toward letting the goal stand on video review because it's not clearly wrong. That said, no one knows the current FIFA instructions--both on VAR and offside--than Geiger. Except Fletcher (relative to offside), of course.

That might be my only quibble or the only surprise for me here. VAR protocols allow the referee to bring an AR over to the monitor to help him in situations related to offside (if it's an on-field review, then it's not about offside position--it's become subjective). Given Fletcher is the guy who kept his flag down when offside position was abundantly clear to him (you can see Fletcher in the background explaining to Vermes what he did and why), I wonder if Geiger considered asking Fletcher to come take another look himself.

 

I think when the clarification came out a few years ago, it was taught to the mortals at the bottom of the totem pole (like me!) as "did the defender play the ball or did the ball play the defender". It was a familiar mindset from handling decisions and those instructors probably felt it was the best way to communicate the intricacies of law 11 to the average ref.

Clearly PRO and presumably FIFA have set the bar quite a bit higher for a deliberate play and, in my opinion, that information has not made it down to the grade 7s and 8s.

 

Ah, my bad. Then half my post is irrelevant. Sorry about that.

 

The bar moved some. Look at the Lovren play from Liverpool/Spurs. Onside now. Offside then.

 

I'm confused, particularly when reading your post as a response to @GoDawgsGo 's question, so just clarifying... by "then," you mean Lovren was offside five years ago but he's onside today? Or you mean Lovren should have been called offside in that game but he's onside today? In other words, when are you saying the "bar moved?"

To follow-up here, I think the big point here is that if Lovren was correctly called onside, then there is a compelling case for the MLS goal to have stood last night. If Lovren is offside, then last night's goal was definitely offside.

 

There was a few clarifications in interpretation of Law 11 about five years ago that was widely reported (wrongly) as the "new offside law". Anyone can correct me, but I remember a shift towards the attackers with FIFA expanding the scope of what a deliberate play was. Maybe I'm just losing my mind. It wouldn't be the first time.

As for the Lovren vs this debate, I think the big difference is body control. Lovern was not making what was effectively an uncontrolled stretch. He just misplayed the ball. IMO, the SKC player didn't have the opportunity to make a controlled play on the ball, only a wild stab/kick out, which appears to be enough to make this offside.

 

I'm making some clear and obvious errors this morning.

 

Yes, but since it was a matter of fact and not opinion, we can get involved even if it wasn't obvious.

 

No, you're absolutely right. And I think that was the point @GoDawgsGo was making. Given those clarifications about 5 years ago, one could reasonably land at the conclusion that last night's goal was onside or, at the least, could be defended as being onside.

But it seems PRO is leaning in the other direction and our top international referee, with the benefit of video (so it basically becomes an instructional clip) said offside. Given that sort of instruction and decision, he was asking if we've moved back in the other direction, toward where we were 5 years ago.

I think that's reasonable, but I think that's also where we get firmly into the grey area of these sort of things. How far away from the ball did the SKC have to be for this to turn from a deliberate play into a deflection? Another 3 yards? 5? 10? This same exact play is absolutely onside at a certain point. Defining that point seems rather arbitrary.

 

If @yossarian is trying to figure out if this is onside or offside by reading this thread, it can be summarized by ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

Hopefully PRO will clarify in their Play of the Week. I'm still leaning towards offside. A few others towards onside. This was certainly in the grey area.

 

This is only my opinion and it's based on my observations from PRO and UEFA clips. I think the pendulum might have swung a bit too much towards deliberate play when the interpretations came out about five years ago and there has been movement from PRO/FIFA/UEFA to bring the pendulum back in. It feels that the "magic line" will end up being further towards deliberate play compared to before 2013, but maybe not as much as we first saw around 2014.