After having been wasted at ATL. It's pretty funny that Carleton kept talking about how he would show the world that MLS can develop talent just as well as teams in Europe... and he's going to be another case showing that they cannot.
No, Alfonso Davies says "Eh?". It didn't work for EPB. Did you think everyone was praising SKC's handling of EPB? MLS yes-men certainly called his leaving on a free as a successful "transfer", after he'd already left once before and tried to stick with Porto II...
I actually think Carleton's trajectory over the past two months has been extremely encouraging. He struggled in USL at first. Too sloppy. I know everyone thinks that's because his team is bad but I don't think that's the only reason. In any case it was discouraging and didn't argue strongly for MLS minutes. BUT, he seems to have sorted it out in the past month and has been the most influential player on the pitch each of his last three USL appearances. He had a good game in U.S. Open Cup against Charleston and scored a goal, and then he had a very bright, very brief cameo last night in the loss to Chicago. He's now got a brightness and decisiveness to his step, as well as a tidiness and patience, that he didn't have consistently 45 days ago. Combine that with his ability to conjure something brilliant at least two or three times a game and he's really making a case for an MLS start, even on a team as good as Atlanta. If he keeps up the good work my guess is he will get that start before the end of the summer. His summer will probably be interrupted by another U-20 camp, so that's a factor, but I think Atlanta has so far handled his situation pretty well.
You know how we're talking about MLS teams developing youngsters by playing them? Who, other than Miazga, has been developed that way in the last decade? By my count, Cyle Larin, and Andy Najar. Anyone else? What's probably hurting some guys is, if they aren't going to crack their own team's lineup, they aren't getting any intra-MLS loans. For example, EPB is clearly at least MLS-level. So languishing at Swope Park Rangers would be absurd. But he wouldn't/couldn't get a loan to another MLS team that could use him. Is the MLS loan system weird? I'm going to guess the answer is "yes", considering that most MLS rules are complicated.
Just because I had never seen you say anything about how much you had seen him and he had a couple spotty games in there so I was wondering if those were the only games you saw. But it sound like you’ve seen him enough.
Yeah......................SKC did so poorly developing EPB that one of the biggest clubs in the World bought him. We also all know the story with this. SKC had set it up perfectly. They'd loaned him to to Porto with a very reasonable option to buy. Then despite EPB playing really well with them, Porto chose not to trigger the transfer clause. So the result was EPB came back to MLS with the following being true: 1) SKC had the best CB tandem in the league already in Besler/Opara. 2) EPB was clearly not re-signing with SKC so they had no reason to play him other than when they wanted to give Besler/Opara a break. 3) Euro clubs knew EPB was going to be available on a free in a year. So why would they pay a substantial fee for him slightly earlier? So the whole thing stank all around, but it all was precipitated by the unfortunate step of Porto not paying the very reasonable transfer fee. SKC could have sold him at a cut rate price with only a year left on his deal, but why? They probably thought a year of EPB as an insurance policy for Besler/Opara was better than letting him leave for a cut-rate price. Just so we're all on the same page, he played about 800 minutes in 2017 in MLS/USOC, while also being gone with the U20s for the CONCACAF Championships and the World Cup. People act like he played 5 minutes. In a world in which SKC didn't have Besler/Opara & the best defense in the league................he would presumably have gotten more. Its not really weird. There's just little incentive for MLS clubs to loan players to rivals. This isn't the Premier League where Spurs can loan a DeAndre Yedlin to a team in the bottom half of the league like Newcastle. They're not rivals for trophies. In the MLS "level playing field" world of parity, every team in the league is a rival. I mean, what would have been the purpose of SKC loaning EPB out to another MLS team last season? A team that could have used CB help like an LA Galaxy. Why would you try to make them better? The best thing that can happen in this regard is that the quality of the USL keeps improving year after year so loans to that league become increasingly productive.
For the record I think Carleton has the highest upside of any American player. He's a little genius. I think he could end up changing the landscape and reshaping the way kids in our country think about what it is to be a soccer player.
So EPB would've been so good that they would've turned DCU into a contender? You could always call him back if he is really good. Not to mention the fact that he'd never face you in a game. Besides, as more and more teams get added, I'd assume that they keep playoff spots the same, so there will be more teams that stack up on the bottom. I mean, I suppose that'll be one area where playoffs and a parity-driven league will be hurt. I just don't see how a team's bench player or prospect (which is who they would loan out) could possibly transform teams as bad as SJ, MNU, or Colorado...
Yeah, but why would SKC loan him out? He was in their 18 on a weekly basis as the top CB on the bench. Why would they make themselves a worse team in order to help DCU out? What's the incentive for SKC in this case? the rules really aren't complicated: https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2013...-league-loan-system-first-time-league-history I) Only players 24 years of age or younger are eligible for loans; II) Loans must be executed within the primary transfer window of a given MLS season (Feb. 12-May 6 in 2013); III) All loans run through the end of the MLS season (player reverts to his original club only after MLS Cup); IV) Roster slot and budget considerations surrounding the loan are subject to negotiation between the two clubs; V) There are no limits on the number of loans involving any one team (incoming or outgoing loans). Now if there was a team that called Atlanta and said "we want Andrew Carleton for the rest of the season as an automatic starter," would they do it? Probably not. Because if they have international callups coincide with an injury or two........................then then DO need Carleton for the 18. And with the MLS loan rules, they can just recall him. If he's gone, he's gone.
The bolded is probably the main reason. See, SKC might loan out EPB, or some other prospect, because they want to see if he's any good. Why does Tottenham loan out Yedlin? Because they want to see if he's any good. And it's not just EPB, but perhaps dozens of more marginal prospects throughout the league that could benefit. But if you have to loan out for the entire year, if the prospect turns good, you can't get him back to help your team. At that point, loaning is almost more of a "transfer" that will give neither team what they want. The transferring team won't get as much for the player, and the team that gets the player is going to have to give him back...
I would not have guessed you felt that way. I still see him for who he is. He’s not great defensively but he’s gotten better. I think a lot of people saw him give away the ball at times with the u17s and they didn’t look at the big picture. The 8 and 10 roles for the u17s were a revolving door with a lot of mediocrity and he was left to go it alone a lot, especially against better competition. But his creativity, decision making, and work rate in and around the 18 are off the charts. Passes like that chip last night happen every single game with him. When he shoots, it’s almost always on target. He just makes goals happen.
Even away from the box he does eye-popping stuff. Always looking to break the game open and has the technique and vision to do it. For example, this pass to Goslin is just sick. 👀 pic.twitter.com/KtEe7vkyXS— scuffed (@scuffedpod) June 14, 2018
Also, who cares if he's good defensively. He's never going to be a midfield destroyer. And he won't be a pure winger either. Not fast enough. He's a 10. As long as he works hard on defense and helps out that's fine. The key thing is ball security. If he can nail that down completely, game over.
His speed is fine. Dempsey played in the premier league as a winger quite often, and he was never a burner.
Well it seems like the way the federation (and Atlanta) is going right now, he at least has to be competent defensively to get on the pitch. The ball security thing is a curiosity to me. I just watched Pulisic and Wood give the ball away multiple times in their own end for 3 games but every time I brought it up, someone was there to brush it aside because they score goals. I agree with you. I want them all to improve and make better decisions. I just feel like it’s been an excuse to keep Carelton off the field. Hell, Barco was tripping all over himself last night but he’s still getting as much playing time as he can handle. Plus, I don’t believe the USL is good enough to force Carleton to improve. That’s probably my biggest issue with what’s going on. If there was some plan to make him a more complete and better player, I’d buy in.
Seems that somewhere between you two is the truth. Hard to blame SKC for how things turned out with EPB as the buyout clause was reasonable but also also hard to give them much, if any, credit for his development. ManCity presumably signed him on a free because they saw raw potential and, given his young age as a defender, the opportunity to see what his upside is. My guess is that they’d have been equally, if not more, interested when he was 16 but I don’t think he had the passport.
What’s the difference between being good defensively and working hard on defense? Ball-winning? Thanks.
I think he's pretty underrated defensively, actually. Its easy for everyone to say he's bad defensively because of how he profiles (small, not very athletic, risky style of play, gets a diva reputation). I think there's a misconception that turning the ball over a lot means you are bad defensively. By definition, turning the ball over is in possession, not out of possession, so its not even defense. Out of possession, I find Carleton to play a very smart game. He knows his limits. He's not some big roaming destroyer who tries to cover every inch of the field, but he positions himself well, he's very willing to put in a tackle if its needed and he has very quick feet to poke the ball away in challenges, which is an attribute in defense that is not talked about enough for some diminutive attacking mids who are good defensively. I can't even begin to count how many 50/50 balls I've seen another undersized American prospect Moses Nyeman, win because his feet are quicker, he judges the flight of the ball better, he's more willing to try an unconventional touch. Carleton is the same way, but this part of his game is never given its proper due. These big hulking destroyers will win every 50/50 ball thats purely about physicality, but they usually lose out to smarter, more technical players with lower centers of gravity when its not purely a physicality 50/50 ball. In fact, I think smaller players often don't get proper due defensively. Some just aren't any good defensively, but a lot who are don't make flashy physically dominant defensive plays, so you have to watch closer for their defensive actions.
I just don't think defense is what Carleton will ever be on the field for. He just needs to give a good effort (which he has been doing lately), rather than be relied on to disrupt the opponent's play, win a lot of tackles or be a lock-down 1v1 defender.
I think Pulisic's lack of ball security is a problem too, but he's a winger so it's less of a problem than for Carleton who projects as a central player. Bobby Wood is not even in this conversation for me. Serviceable striker but he's already hit his ceiling. Barco? Yeah, I've had the same thought. He's never looked great to me. I disagree that USL isn't good enough to force Carleton to improve. He's been improving in USL in the past three weeks!
Did SKC develop him enough to walk into the 18 for ManCity: No Did SKC develop him enough to being an immediate starter in Belgium and now likely the Netherlands: Yes.