2017 MLS Week 6 Referee Discussion

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by bhooks, Apr 4, 2017.

  1. bhooks

    bhooks Member

    Apr 14, 2015
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    04/07/2017

    LA Galaxy v Montreal Impact
    StubHub Center (10:30pm ET)
    REF: ARMANDO VILLARREAL
    AR1: Jonathan Johnson
    AR2: Richard Gamache
    4TH: Younes Marrakchi

    04/08/2017

    Chicago Fire v Columbus Crew
    Toyota Park (2:00pm ET)
    REF: ALAN KELLY
    AR1: Matthew Nelson
    AR2: Eric Weisbrod
    4TH: Sorin Stoica

    New England Revolution v Houston Dynamo
    Gillette Stadium (2:00pm ET)
    REF: SILVIU PETRESCU
    AR1: Gianni Facchini
    AR2: Craig Lowry
    4TH: Jose Carlos Rivero

    D.C. United v New York City
    RFK Stadium (4:00pm ET)
    REF: DREW FISCHER
    AR1: Claudiu Badea
    AR2: Jeff Muschik
    4TH: Mark Kadlecik

    Philadelphia Union v Portland Timbers
    Talen Energy Stadium (7:00pm ET)
    REF: ROBERT SIBIGA
    AR1: Adam Wienckowski
    AR2: Kyle Longville
    4TH: Jorge Gonzalez

    Toronto FC v Atlanta United
    BMO Field (7:30pm ET)
    REF: DAVE GANTAR
    AR1: Philippe Briere
    AR2: Jason White
    4TH: Geoff Gamble

    FC Dallas v Minnesota United
    Toyota Stadium (8:00pm ET)
    REF: CHRIS PENSO
    AR1: Brian Poeschel
    AR2: Jose Da Silva
    4TH: Rubiel Vazquez

    Real Salt Lake v Vancouver Whitecaps
    Rio Tinto Stadium (9:30pm ET)
    REF: BALDOMERO TOLEDO
    AR1: Corey Parker
    AR2: Kevin Klinger
    4TH: Fotis Bazakos

    San Jose Earthquakes v Seattle Sounders
    Avaya Stadium (10:30pm ET)
    REF: RICARDO SALAZAR
    AR1: Kathryn Nesbitt
    AR2: Logan Brown
    4TH: Younes Marrakchi

    04/09/2017

    Orlando City v New York Red Bulls
    Orlando City Stadium (4:00pm ET)
    REF: ISMAIL ELFATH
    AR1: Kermit Quisenberry
    AR2: Peter Balciunas
    4TH: Ted Unkel

    Sporting Kansas City v Colorado Rapids
    Children's Mercy Park (7:00pm ET)
    REF: ALLEN CHAPMAN
    AR1: Peter Manikowski
    AR2: Nick Uranga
    4TH: Caleb Mendez

    http://www.proreferees.com/2017-mls-regular-season-assignments---week-6.php
     
  2. Bubba Atlanta

    Bubba Atlanta Member+

    Mar 2, 2012
    Yep, Atlanta
    Club:
    Atlanta United FC
    Argh ... is it just my #ATLUTD goggles that made the send off of Asad look as terrible as it did to me? :mad:
     
  3. GlennAA11

    GlennAA11 Member+

    Jun 12, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    nope. poor decision, poorly handled
     
  4. Freestyle2000

    Freestyle2000 Moderator

    Feb 6, 2000
    LA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Salazar seems to be struggling in SJ-SEA. Inconsistent foul threshold, barking (and at a couple of points, yelling) at players, etc...
     
  5. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Look, if you're trying to get around an opponent, there's typically a way to do it without giving them a forearm to the head well away from the ball.
     
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  6. bluetooner

    bluetooner Member

    Nov 7, 2008
    Carteret NJ
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    Scotland
    Sibiga had a weird one yesterday,

    First there was the penalty he gave I'm told was Blake who took down the Portland player outside the box, Blake was booked and penalty given (could have been red?). I thought it was actually Fabinho who took the player down, which would have been red and penalty. A replay was shown and suddenly Sibiga went over to talk to the 4th official and AR on other side of stadium (as far as i know the AR who should have seen wasn't involved in the discussion). I'd guess to talk about the replay, and as you can't use that to influence a decision gave penalty?

    The really weird one was late in the game. He showed Onyewu a yellow then red card, but Onyewu stayed on the field and someone else was shown a yellow too. The MLS site doesn't give info on the other yellow, but no idea what happened with Onyewu unless he thought it was a 2nd yellow? It was also a long time after the foul he gave the cards, hopefully not taking any injury into consideration.

    For what it's worth I thought he missed a stone wall penalty earlier in 2nd half when I thought Adi was taken down in the box.

    Still really confused with what happened with Onyewu though.
     
  7. ChelseaSounder

    Nov 5, 2009
    Seattle, WA, USA
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  8. Thug Mentality

    May 30, 2011
    pretty clear red for endangering the safety
     
  9. ChelseaSounder

    Nov 5, 2009
    Seattle, WA, USA
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    THATS A COLD BLOODED ATTACK AND A RED CARD FOR ME. SEE YA NEXT TIME!!
     
    msilverstein47 repped this.
  10. ptref

    ptref Member

    Manchester United
    United States
    Aug 5, 2015
    Bowling Green, KY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why the hell are they even playing a game in those conditions in the first place?!?
     
  11. fairplayforlife

    fairplayforlife Member+

    Mar 23, 2011
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No kidding.
     
  12. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hey, if its good enough for World Cup Qualifying its good enough for MLS :D
     
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  13. GlennAA11

    GlennAA11 Member+

    Jun 12, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    I think the snow started right around kickoff and for the whole first half it didn't stick to the field. It was only the second half that got really crazy. And I suppose once they started the match they weren't going to stop it.
     
  14. threeputzzz

    threeputzzz Member+

    May 27, 2009
    Minnesota
    To Borg's credit he called worthy of a chuckle.
     
    JasonMa repped this.
  15. rh89

    rh89 Member

    Sep 29, 2015
    OR
    I think Sibiga got the penalty correct. Blake was at fault, and the location is tricky. When the hand hits the foot, it's just outside the area, but continues into the area. If you define it as holding, and it continues into the area, it's a PK. Regardless, I think it's a great chance to do a yellow card DOGSO and not a red card. But that's just me, a bit biased in favor of Portland getting 3 points.

    The Onyewu thing was weird. No idea.
     
  16. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But if you define it as holding it has to be a red card.

    I thought the location call was good, regardless of the type of foul--way too close to criticize. That said, I'm surprised no one has questioned the yellow. If it's a hold, it's red. If it's a challenge or trip with no real chance to play the ball, it's red. Sure, Blake had a chance to play the ball initially. But he reached out to grab the attacker once he knew he was beaten and had no chance to get the ball with the action that actually constituted a foul. I don't fault Sibiga as I think this is the call PRO wants. I just wonder if it's what the IFAB wants.
     
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  17. bhooks

    bhooks Member

    Apr 14, 2015
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    MassachusettsRef repped this.
  18. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Very interesting. Two things on this:

    1) PRO has a very thorough presentation here, but they confuse the issue on the key point. The article says (my emphasis underlined):

    But that's not how the Law is worded. The Law says a player is cautioned unless he does either of those things. That means that both conditions have to be satisfied to stay with the default position of a yellow card. If Sibiga is only satisfied that one of those conditions is met, the Laws say it's a red card. Yet PRO presents it by saying you stay with a yellow card if one of the two conditions is met. That's wrong. I hope it's only a mistake in presentation, rather than a mistake in interpretation.

    2) Fascinating that PRO backs the call, yet concedes in slow motion it appears Blake was not trying to play the ball. That opens up the door to an implication that this play was correctly called on the field, but would have had a different result with VAR (notwithstanding the clauses in the VAR protocol about when to rely on slow motion).
     
  19. threeputzzz

    threeputzzz Member+

    May 27, 2009
    Minnesota
    I think Sibiga and crew got this call correct.

    The PRO article needs some proofreading. One more confusing passage in their explaination:

    "The general philosophy on this Law, as explained by The IFAB (International Football Association Board), is that if the referee is unsure whether the player has made an attempt, or if there is no possibility of the defender playing the ball, the referee should err on the side of a yellow card rather than red card."
     
  20. fairplayforlife

    fairplayforlife Member+

    Mar 23, 2011
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I didn't want to be cynical and shout out cover up but I think you may have predicted they would lean this way earlier this year. This feels very political and has the smell of pressure for yellows over reds coming from somewhere else. *cough* MLS *cough*
     
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  21. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    While framed with an "or" in the LOTG bullet, I don't really see two separate considerations. I see the second "no possibility" as really informing the first "attempt to play the ball" -- if there is no possibility of getting to the ball, there can't really be an attempt to do so. In my mind, the intent of the bullet is to view the scenario holistically, not as two separate considerations. The sentence in the POTW I am not fond of is this one: "The Law does not require a judgement as to how good of an attempt it was to play the ball." I think Law 12 sorta does do that in saying there has to be a possibility to get the ball. At the end of the day, I'm OK with a caution here (but would be OK with a send off as well, as I think it is very close -- and I note that PRO never says it was the decision that had to be made. The GK flings himself at the ball and can't get there. I'm comfortable with the concept (which the POTW attributes to IFAB) that where nothing indicates a cynical, non-soccer play, err on the side of a caution on these plays. (And I think it is wholly inappropriate to try to tease out in slow-mo that there was something more there.)
     
  22. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I really don't follow this reasoning. At the assuredly high risk of entering into a grammatical debate or analysis of syntax...

    If the second component of that bullet informed the first, why wouldn't the sentence say something like "including situations when there is no possibility to play the ball?" There are many ways to construct that sentence where it makes it clear that one thing is being talked about without using the word "or." But "or" is there in black and white.

    Notwithstanding whether you're right or wrong, PRO's explanation that I quoted above uses "either" and "or" in a way that shows they think there are two separate considerations. The sentence I quoted literally says that Sibiga might have went yellow simply because there was a possibility to play the ball. And that's the problem in my eyes.
     
  23. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Maybe it's just me. But I don't think careful reading of syntax has ever been particularly useful in understanding what IFAB is really trying to say.

    Were I a betting man, I'd bet that the bullet was originally written with just the attempt to play. Then there was a discussion about what that meant, as players will always say they tried to get the ball. Some on the committee said if you can't get to the ball, it's not an attempt. Others said, but what will the refs call. So the or part got added in to make it clear that what they really meant was an honest attempt to play on the ball. Be that as it may, I agree that IFAB expects the player to be attempting to get the ball and to have a chance to do so. And though I thought it could have been more clearly written, I didn't read the POTW as trying to say anything different.
     
  24. bhooks

    bhooks Member

    Apr 14, 2015
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    https://www.facebook.com/proreferees/posts/1957662004465880

     
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  25. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Couple thoughts:

    Personally, I think the IFAB would have wanted red for Blake. That's a hold, IMO, and regardless I felt that there was no attempt to play the ball. That said, MLS probably doesn't want a red there so PRO doesn't want a red there, and perhaps for good reason. It's convoluted enough of a situation to err on the side of caution, literally.

    Also had a good laugh at Montreal's failed appeal against the Donadel red. Puh-leeze.
     
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