The assignments for Week 32 of the 2017 MLS season: 10/11/2017 Houston Dynamo v Sporting Kansas City BBVA Compass Stadium (7:00PM ET) REF: BALDOMERO TOLEDO AR1: Eduardo Mariscal AR2: Adam Garner 4TH: Robert Sibiga VAR: Jon Freemon 10/15/2017 Chicago Fire v Philadelphia Union Toyota Park (3:00PM ET) REF: ALLEN CHAPMAN AR1: Peter Balciunas AR2: Nick Uranga 4TH: Marcos DeOliveira VAR: Luis Guardia Portland Timbers v D.C. United Providence Park (5:00PM ET) REF: MARK GEIGER AR1: Logan Brown AR2: Jeffrey Greeson 4TH: Ricardo Salazar VAR: Fotis Bazakos New England Revolution v New York City FC Gillette Stadium (5:00PM ET) REF: NIMA SAGHAFI AR1: Corey Parker AR2: Claudiu Badea 4TH: Jorge Gonzalez VAR: David Barrie New York Red Bulls v Atlanta United Red Bull Arena (5:00PM ET) REF: ALAN KELLY AR1: Adam Wienckowski AR2: Kevin Klinger 4TH: Younes Marrakchi VAR: Edvin Jurisevic Orlando City v Columbus Crew Orlando City Stadium (5:00PM ET) REF: CHRISTOPHER PENSO AR1: Jeff Muschik AR2: CJ Morgante 4TH: Robert Sibiga VAR: Kevin Terry Jr Toronto FC v Montreal Impact BMO Field (5:00PM ET) REF: TED UNKEL AR1: Philippe Briere AR2: Kathryn Nesbitt 4TH: Sorin Stoica VAR: Dave Gantar Colorado Rapids v Real Salt Lake Dick’s Sporting Goods Park (7:30PM ET) REF: ARMANDO VILLARREAL AR1: Eric Weisbrod AR2: Mike Kampmeinert 4TH: Jose Carlos Rivero VAR: Rosendo Mendoza LA Galaxy v Minnesota United StubHub Center (7:30PM ET) REF: ALEX CHILOWICZ AR1: Apolinar Mariscal AR2: Jeremy Kieso 4TH: Baldomero Toledo VAR: Juan Guzman Jr Seattle Sounders v FC Dallas CenturyLink Field (7:30PM ET) REF: DREW FISCHER AR1: Joe Fletcher AR2: Cameron Blanchard 4TH: Alejandro Mariscal VAR: Jon Freemon Sporting Kansas City v Houston Dynamo Children’s Mercy Park (7:30PM ET) REF: KEVIN STOTT AR1: Kermit Quisenberry AR2: Craig Lowry 4TH: Hilario Grajeda VAR: Rubiel Vazquez Vancouver Whitecaps v San Jose Earthquakes BC Place (7:30PM ET) REF: ISMAIL ELFATH AR1: Ian Anderson AR2: Jeremy Hanson 4TH: Baboucarr Jallow VAR: Silviu Petrescu
Trial spot for Jeremy Kieso, AR2 on the LA vs Minnesota game. He has been working mostly NWSL this season. Good friend of mine from South Dakota.
It's really weird seeing the trial spots on LA games this year. That's what happens when you're eliminated, I guess.
Also, I believe both of Chilowicz's earlier centers also involved Minnesota United. Makes you wonder if they're basing the trial assignments on the teams involved a bit, which they probably are.
Minnesota has only seen him once, but they did see Rubiel Vazquez once as well. Over the years, I've observed two typical scenarios where referees and ARs are trialed. Either it's a game that doesn't really matter, or it's in cheap travel distance of a pro assessor's home. First few seasons don't really count as practically every game had what was essentially a trial referee.
Pretty clear red on Morales. Was issued a caution, no call to VAR. Here's that Javier Morales challenge on V8R. Studs up and two-footed. pic.twitter.com/DwkSOYTC5i— Sounder At Heart (@sounderatheart) October 15, 2017
Even though Birnbaum was knocked out completely cold, face down and utterly motionless after a blow to the head, Geiger didn't see it as a head injury, presumably because the head was still attached to the body.
I assume you wanted him to blow the play dead instead of allowing the goal? Birnbaum's injury was an odd one, as the contact to his head came after he had fallen down, when Ebobisse landed on him. I don't think Geiger saw the contact (guessing this because of the angle of the injury relative to his position), and it's a dynamic play in the attacking third. In retrospect, we can see that there was a head injury, but I doubt any ref in regular play would notice and stop play with that kind of attacking position.
I dunno. Geiger may not have seen it, but it's a hard sell that nobody else did. And especially given the fact that play had already been stopped by the referee earlier in that match for blows to that specific player's head, and the fact that he has a concussion history (which I've been told here multiple times is something MLS referees keep track of). Right now, if I was forced to bet, I'd put it at less than 50% that we see Birnbaum on a soccer pitch next season.
Sorry no pass for Geiger on this one. Birnbaum is down off to his left, still in his sight line. He runs past Birnbaum who is lying motionless face down. I am not calling for a lynching of Geiger but he does need to be called on the carpet.
Exactly. Given the other posts here, I was expecting something much different than what actually transpired. This is unfortunate for Birnbaum, but it's a strange injury and a freak accident. In retrospect you could look at it and say a head injury was obvious given the result, but in real-time, given the nature of the challenge and its result, how can a referee be sure a defender isn't staying down there in the hopes of stopping play? It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario for the referee. Because it was an actual head injury, he should have stopped play. But you take this exact same situation, have the referee stop play for something that wasn't serious, and all hell would rained down upon him. https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/m...and-timbers-vs-dc-united/details/video/138479
You need to watch on MLS Live to see the entire incident, but the Toronto goal was a very interesting test case for what an APP is and when VAR can intervene. An obvious foul against Toronto is missed in Montreal's attacking third and Toronto scores 30 seconds later. There's never a full change in possession between the point of the missed foul and the goal, but Montreal does contest the attack and definitely interrupts Toronto's flow about 10 seconds prior to the goal. It's a grey area and I suppose the minimum interference doctrine dictates that the VAR shouldn't intervene. But when you compare it to some of the goals that have been reversed and take into account how obvious the missed foul was, it's a weird one and just feels like something that should have been reversed (unless, of course, the pendulum is already swinging as the experiment continues).
I couldn't disagree more. First, you yourself have said here in the past that getting the ball is no carte blanche for what you subsequently do to the man. Birnbaum is shoved down from behind before being fallen upon. That's not a freak accident: I don't understand why it's not a foul. But even if you ignore that, because fouls sometimes get missed . . .Second, one has to claim that not only Geiger but *everyone in the crew*, including AR, 4th and VAR, were all oblivious of the seriousness of it. That's a very hard sell for me, given how obviously serious it was immediately in the broadcast, and especially given the fact that there had to be concern for the player involved given that Geiger had already stopped play earlier in the match for a head injury and concussion protocol evaluation for the very same player (that was warranted and not faked, btw). But hasn't this always been true for any official injury stoppage? All scenarios where the referee might stop play because of a possible injury are going to draw criticism if the wrong decision is made. My understanding was that officials were being instructed to err on the side of caution for head injuries, and even moreso in cases of repeated head injury to individual players. Is that not true? Seemingly every week, across the League I keep seeing players going down from obvious strong blows to the head and play not stopping, and it makes me wonder if the League is saying the right things (about establishing such guidelines for the referees) but not actually doing it. EDIT: I just watched it again, focusing on Geiger. He's looking at the foul when committed, and runs by Birnbaum's motionless body; the time between the uncalled foul and Geiger running by Birnbaum's body was "one thousand one, one thousand two, one thousand three, one thousand four." That seems to me a lot of time for what just happened to sink in.
No, you probably couldn't. Don't think we'll come to a resolution here, but in the interests of addressing your points... To the first part, yes, of course I have. But I still don't see a foul. The ball is won fairly, in my opinion and the subsequent contact sends Birnbaum to ground. The Portland attacker is then off-balance and falls on him, which creates the injury. You obviously see it differently, but I don't think most referees--or professional players, for that matter--would view this as a foul. I think you're conflating two (if not more) issues here. No one is saying or pretending that someone on the crew didn't see Birnbaum lying face down. I'm sure Geiger saw it--either in his direct vision or out of the corner of his eye. The trail AR and 4th would have seen it. The question is whether or not an immediate assessment of Birnbaum's position on the turf, particularly in light of the collision, leads to a conclusion that there is a serious head injury that requires play being stopped immediately. That's not as easy as you're making it out to be. Also, the VAR has nothing to do with any of this. He would only intervene after-the-fact if he believed a clear and obvious foul was missed. This is--quite obviously--subjective. And I think you're seeing it a little through a partisan lens. It becomes obvious at some point, but it's really difficult to say that it becomes obvious immediately. That's a very difficult determination to make. Without seeing the other play, I struggle to determine if this is relevant or not. Just because one head injury happens doesn't mean another later injury is also a head injury--in this case, if Geiger and team don't see the head contact (which they apparently didn't), it's entirely plausible that it was another type of injury that is keeping Birnbaum down. Without seeing the contact with the head, it's hard to immediately jump to the conclusion that there was a head injury, even if the previous head incident was correctly dealt with. Indeed, given the fact that Geiger correctly dealt with a head injury to this player previously, doesn't that give him some credibility (and the benefit of the doubt), meaning he would have dealt with the head injury if he, well, knew it was a head injury? Everything you say here is true, but the problem is this incident wasn't an "obvious blow to the head." There are context clues that develop over a couple seconds to suggest there was a head injury, but the contact wasn't obvious and a "blow" wasn't apparent. This is a tough call because by the time a referee might have that "oh shit, he could be really hurt" moment, play has already passed Birnbaum and is bearing down on goal. Without seeing and knowing there was head contact, this is not easy. The fact that you're choosing to call it a foul shows where you're coming from on this. And, again, a motionless body for 3 seconds could mean a head injury and it could mean a bruised ego. Without seeing contact with the head, a referee is only guessing. You want him to guess (correctly) that Birnbaum had a head injury because A) he did and B) it would have saved your team a goal. Next time something similar happens in the other direction, my gut tells me you'd prefer he did what he did.
I think it's pretty obvious when a player gets knocked out (which seemed pretty obvious live, let alone on replay), but YMMV.
I guess my issue is that running a guy over from behind should be a foul in my opinion. I think that's part of the problem fans have with MLS generally. Too many referees allow too much foul play in the interest of "flow". Maybe the players are happy about that or maybe not, I don't know.
I really don't understand. You are a working ref, so I accept that if you say it's the standard, it's almost certainly the standard. But I don't understand. Birnbaum goes down because he gets hit in the center of the back by Ebobisse's shoulder and upper arm. That's what happened in the play -- I watched it when it happened, and have watched the replay since (although the replay isn't as good as the broadcast was, since the replay does not include close-ups of the challenge). My understanding has always been that a shoulder-to-shoulder challenge can be acceptable, but to be checked in the back is not. Is that wrong? What makes getting brought down by being struck in the middle of the back not a foul? I'm not saying that it's easy to know that there's clearly an injury. I'm combining it with what I (perhaps incorrectly) thought was the guidance given to referees: that one should err on the side of caution when a potential head injury is involved. In other words, I don't think the question is "whether or not . . . .leads to a conclusion that there is a serious head injury", but rather whether there may be a serious head injury. But maybe I have that wrong. Well, yeah; but as per the above, it has seemed to me that there was. A little re-arranging: You may not believe this, but honestly, I didn't (and don't) care about the goal. The game was done and dusted long before that goal was scored. It was over, and DC United isn't playing for anything; it doesn't even wound my pride. What does really, really bother me is *head injuries*, and a seemingly cavalier attitude about them. As a fan of a team: since 2005, DC United has had seven regular starters have their careers come to an abrupt premature end because of concussion, and that's absurd. As a human being: I've had the opportunity to talk with a couple of these players as they've tried to cope with the lasting effects, and it just unbelievably sucks for them. Really, this has driven me nuts ever since I watched a match with two players down inside the penalty box with bloody head wounds after a head-on-head collision, and the referee (Marrufo) failed to stop the game. Since then, the League has talked about how they recognize there's a problem: but I watch the cursory way in which the concussion protocols are applied along the sideline, to finish them up as quickly as possible so the player can get back onto the pitch; and I watch the elbows to the head that don't get called; and I observe the apparently increasing frequency with which players exit the league from repeated concussions; and after a while it just seems like meaningless PR talk. Agreed, but that's not my point. I'm not suggesting that the earlier head injury should have indicated to Geiger that this, also, was a head injury. My point is that after one head injury has happened, if another one does happen to the same player, the chances of that injury being severe are exponentially higher. A second head injury that occurs in a short time frame after an earlier head injury has a much, much higher chance of causing significant brain trauma. Those are the concussive events that end up having permanent/lifelong effects. It was my understanding that the guidance to referees to err on the side of caution when it came to head injuries was even more emphatic when the player involved had already suffered a head injury in the match, for that very reason. Is that not true? If that's wrong, then Geiger can't be faulted for that, but the League or PRO (I'm ignorant of which) can be faulted because their guidance (or rather, their lack thereof) is dangerous.
In regards to the Birnbaum incident. There is no way that is a foul at a professional match or really any competitive level of serious soccer. It's a clean dispossession by the attacker. The defender got his pocket picked clean and the resulting injury is just unfortunate. Unless bone is showing or it's clear to everyone in the stadium that the guy was knocked out cold, you can't stop play immediately over there. You just can't. This wasn't 50 or 60 yards away from goal. The change of possession created almost an obvious goal scoring opportunity. No way are you stopping play there and nobody from either team expects play to be stopped there. I don't know how the injury was dealt with after the goal. If the trainers weren't immediately beckoned then it is a failure by the crew to protect the players there. If the guy just laid down there after the goal was scored and Geiger was just minding his own business and recording the goal, then yeah it is a failure by the crew and they should be hammered for that. Also, if you really want to talk about player safety and referees not caring about player safety then bring this up instead. https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/m...sounders-fc-vs-fc-dallas/details/video/138288 If you can't correct this with VAR, then you should just scrap the system. Just terrible on all fronts. Wasting everyone's time.
Please explain why. I'm not disagreeing with you -- I just don't understand why a shoulder check from behind isn't a foul. Thanks. To everyone in the stadium? I'm sure there were some beer vendors who didn't know. That statement seems outrageous to me; but player safety matters to me, I guess.
As I said earlier, it's pretty easy to tell immediately when someone gets knocked out during a sporting event, but clearly, YMMV.
Oh wait you all we did not get the memo on head injuries to Washington Professional Athlete's on Sunday were to be Ignored by the match officials
Geritol Crew Sporting Kansas City v Houston Dynamo Children’s Mercy Park (7:30PM ET) REF: KEVIN STOTT AR1: Kermit Quisenberry AR2: Craig Lowry 4TH: Hilario Grajeda VAR: Rubiel Vazquez Wow let me guess this match was slow and easy. Not sure about Grajeda but the rest have to be pushing 50 years old or well over that line