09/27/2017 Atlanta United v Philadelphia Union Mercedes-Benz Stadium (7:00PM ET) REF: MARK GEIGER AR1: CJ Morgante AR2: Matthew Nelson 4TH: Geoff Gamble VAR: Katja Koroleva Montreal Impact v New York City FC Stade Saputo (7:30PM ET) REF: HILARIO GRAJEDA AR1: Nick Uranga AR2: Daniel Belleau 4TH: Sorin Stoica VAR: Edvin Jurisevic New York Red Bulls v D.C. United Red Bull Arena (7:30PM ET) REF: CHRISTOPHER PENSO AR1: Jeff Muschik AR2: Brian Dunn 4TH: Alan Kelly VAR: Juan Guzman Orlando City v New England Revolution Orlando City Stadium (7:30PM ET) REF: SILVIU PETRESCU AR1: Phil Briere AR2: Kermit Quisenberry 4TH: Marcos DeOliveira VAR: Jose Carlos Rivero FC Dallas v Colorado Rapids Toyota Stadium (8:00PM ET) REF: RICARDO SALAZAR AR1: Jeffrey Greeson AR2: Ian Anderson 4TH: Younes Marrakchi VAR: Ted Unkel Houston Dynamo v LA Galaxy BBVA Compass Stadium (8:30PM ET) REF: FOTIS BAZAKOS AR1: Adam Wienckowski AR2: Logan Brown 4TH: Alejandro Mariscal VAR: Dave Gantar San Jose Earthquakes v Chicago Fire Avaya Stadium (10:30PM ET) REF: DREW FISCHER AR1: Peter Balciunas AR2: Eduardo Mariscal 4TH: Alex Chilowicz VAR: Baldomero Toledo Seattle Sounders v Vancouver Whitecaps CenturyLink Field (10:30PM ET) REF: ROBERT SIBIGA AR1: Peter Manikowski AR2: Mike Kampmeinert 4TH: Baboucarr Jallow VAR: Allen Chapman 09/30/2017 Orlando City v FC Dallas Orlando City Stadium (4:00PM ET) REF: ARMANDO VILLARREAL AR1: Corey Parker AR2: Jason White 4TH: Juan Guzman VAR: Sorin Stoica Toronto FC v New York Red Bulls BMO Field (7:00PM ET) REF: ALLEN CHAPMAN AR1: Jeremy Hanson AR2: Gianni Facchini 4TH: Geoff Gamble VAR: Yusri Rudolf Columbus Crew v D.C. United MAPFRE Stadium (7:30PM ET) REF: TED UNKEL AR1: Kathryn Nesbitt AR2: Claudiu Badea 4TH: Alejandro Mariscal VAR: Kevin Terry Jr New England Revolution v Atlanta United Gillette Stadium (7:30PM ET) REF: NIMA SAGHAFI AR1: Eric Weisbrod AR2: Anthony Vasoli 4TH: Robert Sibiga VAR: Fotis Bazakos Chicago Fire v New York City FC Toyota Park (8:30PM ET) REF: JOSE CARLOS RIVERO AR1: Andrew Bigelow AR2: Brian Poeschel 4TH: Mark Kadlecik VAR: Christopher Penso Houston Dynamo v Minnesota United BBVA Compass Stadium (8:30PM ET) REF: ISMAIL ELFATH AR1: Apolinar Mariscal AR2: Jose Da Silva 4TH: Daniel Radford VAR: Silviu Petrescu Colorado Rapids v Montreal Impact Dick’s Sporting Goods Park (9:00PM ET) REF: JORGE GONZALEZ AR1: Jonathan Johnson AR2: Oscar Mitchell-Carvalho 4TH: Baboucarr Jallow VAR: Rosendo Mendoza Sporting Kansas City v Vancouver Whitecaps Children’s Mercy Park (9:00PM ET) REF: BALDOMERO TOLEDO AR1: Adam Garner AR2: Kevin Klinger 4TH: Younes Marrakchi VAR: Edvin Jurisevic LA Galaxy v Real Salt Lake StubHub Center (10:30PM ET) REF: RUBIEL VAZQUEZ AR1: Ian Anderson AR2: Cameron Blanchard 4TH: Hilario Grajeda VAR: Ramy Touchan San Jose Earthquakes v Portland Timbers Avaya Stadium (10:30PM ET) REF: KEVIN STOTT AR1: Mike Rottersman AR2: Felisha Mariscal 4TH: Dave Gantar VAR: Ricardo Salazar 10/01/2017 Philadelphia Union v Seattle Sounders Talen Energy Stadium (1:00PM ET) REF: ALAN KELLY AR1: Danny Thornberry AR2: Eric Boria 4TH: Marcos DeOliveira VAR: Fotis Bazakos http://proreferees.com/2017/09/26/mls-assignments-week-30/
Referee right on the spot sees this play, whistles a foul. VAR contacts him, center reviews, red card. Huh? REDa! Kouassi gets sent off for a challenge on Seb Hines. #NERevs down to 10 men early in the first half against #ocsc #ORLvNE pic.twitter.com/iWErDbm265— GolazoJuice (@GolazoJuice) September 27, 2017
Marginally better video of it (a couple of diff't angle replays at least): https://streamable.com/s0iit
Looks like Kouassi kicks the ball before sliding through the opponent with a straight, locked leg, studs exposed. I mean, if Petrescu thinks it's serious foul play...
But Petrescu thinking something on video is a red isn't the standard. Clearly and obviously wrong is the standard. I don't know how either red card tonight fits that standard. And I particularly don't understand how both calls got upgraded tonight while the red last week in Atlanta was not downgraded. If the "well, red is defensible" standard applies in one direction, surely the same logic has to apply in the other. Yellow was defensible on the Tchani tackle. A yellow would have been defensible in Orlando. Not optimal, many would argue in either case, but certainly defensible. That was good enough logic to keep Vazquez heading to the locker room last week. But it didn't work the other way tonight. I know a new system will have hiccups, but this is all over the map week-to-week. Despite being a trial, this matters. And it's going to matter a lot more soon.
I would argue that clearly and obviously wrong in the opinion of the referee is the standard. After all, if a referee looks at a replay and decides that a player needs to be sent off, it logically must follow that, in the opinion of the referee, it was a clear and obvious error to not send off that player in the first place. It seems from my vantage point that the VARs are triggering reviews not only because they think a clear and obvious error was made but because they're pretty sure the referee will agree. Otherwise, what's the point? This stands at odds with the way VAR and video review have been implemented in, for example, the German Bundesliga. In the vast majority of cases there, the referee is acting solely on the advice of the VAR without viewing the video personally. This is, in practice, a much higher standard. Gone is the sort of "safety net" that an on-field review by the referee grants. The VAR must be absolutely certain that the referee erred, knowing that the referee is going to trust that judgment. In theory, only the worst, most obvious misses are going to be corrected. I think most people agree at this point that the European model is showing better results and is closer to the ideal as far as affecting the flow and spirit of the game, but until MLS decides to go that route, these sorts of grey area tackles are going to be reviewed fairly frequently. The question of why FIFA has different leagues testing video review in two fundamentally different implementations while planning on using some form of this system at the biggest sporting event in the world next year is still very much left unanswered. FWIW I'd give it even odds that Kouassi gets sent off for that challenge via video review in Germany. Tchani almost certainly would not have been. In my opinion. Which is often wrong.
For better or worse, I feel like this is the key. To use the Tchani example--perhaps Sibiga looks at the replay and he thinks to himself "I did not see that when I first saw the foul--had I seen it that way, I obviously would have given a red card." When you allow the CR to view the replay, I don't think we can expect them not to use the replay to augment their first viewing of the incident in question, and that new information may lead them to feel that a red or PK should have (or should not have) been given. I also agree with your interpretation that if you only allow VAR to give verbal input to the CR (and don't allow the CR to watch the video), then it becomes essentially the same situation as a 4O or AR giving advice to the CR, and that makes a higher and more natural bar for what is an obvious error--it has to be an error so great that the CR is willing to change his decision based solely on input from his team without the benefit of a re-watch.
A few items from Sounders/Whitecaps. Sibiga goes to the video review and converts Tchani's yellow into a red. Seems like a good call. Looked like he was looking at a still image, though. Who controls what is shown on that screen? https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/m...s-vancouver-whitecaps-fc/details/video/136422 ---- Yellow given for simulation here, not sure if I agree... https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/m...s-vancouver-whitecaps-fc/details/video/136328 ---- How this isn't SFP, I'm not sure, looks like he got something in his ear to issue the yellow: https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/m...s-vancouver-whitecaps-fc/details/video/136351 ---- Possibly the quickest draw I've ever seen: https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/m...s-vancouver-whitecaps-fc/details/video/136360
Well the Waston incident, at least, can't be SFP because it's off the ball. Potential for VC, but we never get a great look at it on the replay. Did he just push him, or did he step on the back of his leg, too?
In the VAR booth is the VAR, a production assistant who is controlling the equipment at the direction of the VAR, and the AVAR. So technically, the answer would be the production assistant. The goal of the VAR and production assistant is to provide the best possible angles to see the play. Obviously they have the ability to pause, rewind, slow-mo, etc.
I can see why the Tchani red went the way it did. In slow mo it's easy to see that he kicks out after the ball is past him. At full speed in real time this looks like a reckless attempt to play the ball but on replay it looks like nothing but a deliberate kick to the groin (in my opinion).
The Sounders/Whitecap VAR review was interesting to listen to from the commentators. The analyst said something to the point of "the ref gave a yellow so I thought they couldn't review it". Somewhere, Howard Webb is banging his head against his desk.
I don't necessarily think you're wrong, but I have three general points: 1) Whatever standard is being used (and it's fluctuated on SFP from the non-Unkel red for Sarvas, to the Vazquez remaining red with Salazar, to the two upgrades this week--with more ebbs and flows in between), it is definitely not what Webb, Elleray and Busacca have kept saying it will be and it is. It's supposed to be "minimum interference, maximum benefit." And Webb has gone to great lengths to say it will not change the debatable or subjective calls. David Elleray has said that clear and obvious means that 95 out of 100 people "in football" would look at the incident and say it's wrong (I think this language has got out there publicly, but even if it hasn't, it's consistent with what's being publicized). Before VAR, no one would have batted an eye if Tchani didn't get sent off with almost no time on the clock for a tackle that is more red than yellow, but still somewhere in between for many. And absolutely no one, except for some eagled-eye observes in this forum and maybe Simon Borg, would have advocated for the red card on Kouassi. These types of decisions aren't fixing obvious errors; they are changing the way the game is officiated. That's not "minimum interference, maximum benefit." 2) The inconsistency is unacceptable in a professional first division that is reaching its season's culmination and playoff run. Yes, from a technical standpoint PRO officials have been far more prepared for the implementation of VAR than perhaps anyone else other than the Dutch. But the use of VR over two months, to me, shows that it needed much more time to train officials on the practical uses of it and develop a consistency of application. It's wonderful how Webb can tout PRO has been working on this for almost two years and that is better than most of the world. But when you're changing the way the game is officiated and re-training veteran officials who have 15+ years of experience, perhaps you need a lot longer. 3) And that leads me to my third point and the reason I cut off your quote where I did. The World Cup is set up to be a total disaster. Take what we're seeing in MLS and juxtapose it against Serie A and the A-League and the Bundesliga. We're all over the map and that is among the officials who have trained day in and day out for this. Now let's have a World Cup where maybe 8 or so officials have regular work with the VAR system, add in several more dozen who have had a few crash courses, introduce 32 teams where--maybe--20% of the players have been involved in VAR previously, and then change the whole system to have a central location in Moscow instead of having the VAR be part of the crew. It's a recipe for disaster.
Yeah, you're not wrong either. The way this has been implemented has been far different from what we were told to expect coming in. I have a feeling that there will be tweaks to how potential SFP is handled, but I don't know what.
https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2017...ay-angles-matter-instant-replay?autoplay=true Go to 7:05 into Borg's latest instant replay for a bizzare sequence in the HOU-LAG match in Houston. Can anyone figure out what is going on here? LA keeper Diop saves a shot then walks the ball just outside the PA presumably because he thought a foul had been called. Bazakos seems to be indicating he messed up, and eventually restarts with a dropped ball that he rolls back the the GK? I can't figure this one out.
I haven't seen it yet, but if the referee feels that he's introduced ambiguity somehow as to whether the ball is in play/a foul was called/the kick was direct or indirect, etc. I think fairness and common sense would dictate stopping play and restarting with a dropped ball. That said, we can get away with that sort of thing without too much critique out on our local Sunday league games, but in a professional setting, the optics couldn't be worse, particularly for a referee who's only been assigned 10 whistles this year and has had some other interesting incidents under his watch over the last several seasons. I'll be able to comment more once I've seen it. Can't watch, with sound anyway, on the bus ride home from work.
The suspension and fine for the Kouassi red have been rescinded by the IRP. As usual, they pretty much have zero grounds to do so, but you gotta make the Revs happy after they've been reamed by video review for the past couple of weeks.
To review, no pun intended... Petrescu says no misconduct and awards DFK. VAR says it might be a red. Petrescu says, yes, that is clearly and obviously a red card despite the fact that I barely thought it was a foul 90 seconds ago. IRP, made up of PRO, USSF and CSA representatives unanimously agree that a red card is an unreasonable decision and annul the suspension. Good luck in Russia, Massimo.
The issue is going to be the ref made no indication of a foul. To me this is no different than the player grabbing the ball when they go down to try to force/guilt the referee into calling something. Personally this is some weekend warrior referee stuff. He needed to call the handling. These are big boys and if they think this isn't worthy of trying to score then let it be on them.
At some point, I think the blame for some of these mind-boggling decisions has to fall on the VAR. I grant that the training has been poor, the standards practically non-existent, but I think Fisher's miss a few weeks ago was on the VAR for not keeping track of AFP, and the Petrescue one is on the VAR for even alerting him in the first place. Meanwhile Geiger has been bailed out a few times by having his VAR not alert him on things that on replay might have been red, but in the feel of the game, players were fine with yellow. His VAR has helped him, while others have been put in very difficult situations by theirs. Which dawns on me, that maybe if the Russia VARs are centralized (more like MLB), then perhaps Busacca can keep a lid on these kind of incidents personally. That can't possibly be a good plan, but its better than the way MLS is doing it.
I've thought the same thing. And given both the penchant for conspiracy theories in international football and FIFA's sordid past of corruption, it also makes it easier for aggrieved fans to cry "fix" when a VAR decision bizarrely doesn't go their way.
It looks to me that the R walking toward the spot of the potential foul is what made the GK think he had called the foul. (I have no idea how loud that stadium is and whether it is realistic that the GK would not have heard the whistle.) R obviously thinks that his actions confused the keeper. We can debate whether the DB is technically correct, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that the MLS powers that be would want that result instead of having a referee create confusion that creates a great goal scoring opportunity out of nothing. SOTG doesn't have any problem with this result. But I think we also should think of this as a learning opportunity--when there is a potential foul and we are not calling it, we need to be conscious of our actions don't confuse the players. (Though most of us don't have fields where a whistle blow could get lost in the crowd noise.)