2017 MLS Week 13 Referee Discussion

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by bhooks, May 23, 2017.

  1. bhooks

    bhooks Member

    Apr 14, 2015
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    05/25/2017

    Chicago Fire v FC Dallas
    Toyota Park (8:30pm ET)
    REF: JOSE CARLOS RIVERO
    AR1: Logan Brown
    AR2: Gianni Facchini
    4TH: Silviu Petrescu

    05/26/2017

    Toronto FC v Columbus Crew
    BMO Field (7:00pm ET)
    REF: DREW FISCHER
    AR1: Oscar Mitchell-Carvalho
    AR2: Craig Lowry
    4TH: Chris Penso

    05/27/2017

    Seattle Sounders v Portland Timbers
    CenturyLink Field (2:30pm ET)
    REF: MARK GEIGER
    AR1: Jeremy Hanson
    AR2: Mike Rottersman
    4TH: Allen Chapman

    Vancouver Whitecaps v D.C. United
    BC Place (7:00pm ET)
    REF: SORIN STOICA
    AR1: Jason White
    AR2: Adam Garner
    4TH: Alejdandro Mariscal

    New York Red Bulls v New England Revolution
    Red Bull Arena (7:30pm ET)
    REF: ISMAIL ELFATH
    AR1: Kermit Quisenberry
    AR2: Brian Dunn
    4TH: Jorge Gonzalez

    Colorado Rapids v Sporting Kansas City
    Dick's Sporting Goods Park (8:00pm ET)
    REF: HILARIO GRAJEDA
    AR1: Cameron Blanchard
    AR2: Andrew Bigelow
    4TH: Younes Marrakchi

    Minnesota United v Orlando City
    TCF Bank Stadium (8:00pm ET)
    REF: NIMA SAGHAFI
    AR1: Kevin Klinger
    AR2: Felisha Mariscal
    4TH: Juan Guzman

    Real Salt Lake v Philadelphia Union
    Rio Tinto Stadium (8:00pm ET)
    REF: FOTIS BAZAKOS
    AR1: Peter Balciunas
    AR2: Apolinar Mariscal
    4TH: Daniel Radford

    San Jose Earthquakes v LA Galaxy
    Avaya Stadium (10:00pm ET)
    REF: RICARDO SALAZAR
    AR1: Ian Anderson
    AR2: Nick Uranga
    4TH: Baboucarr Jallow

    05/28/2017

    Atlanta United v New York City
    Bobby Dodd Stadium (5:00pm ET)
    REF: ARMANDO VILLARREAL
    AR1: Kyle Atkins
    AR2: Eric Weisbrod
    4TH: Marcos DeOliveira

    FC Dallas v Houston Dynamo
    Toyota Stadium (8:00pm ET)
    REF: JAIR MARRUFO
    AR1: Matthew Nelson
    AR2: Brian Poeschel
    4TH: Caleb Mendez

    http://www.proreferees.com/2017-mls-regular-season-assignments---week-13.php
     
  2. GlennAA11

    GlennAA11 Member+

    Jun 12, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    #2 GlennAA11, May 26, 2017
    Last edited: May 26, 2017
    early PK in Toronto. Waiting to see if video is posted. Fischer produced yellow, but the foul appears to be holding and a fairly obvious send off.
    https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/m...o-fc-vs-columbus-crew-sc/details/video/104965

    I understand that VAR will review PKs and send offs and mistaken identity (and goals). Will it also be used to determine whether a play that only got a caution should have been a send off? Or will referees just automatically go red when it's borderline knowing they will review? Like how the NFL's officials have adjusted the way they do things.
     
  3. sulfur

    sulfur Member+

    Oct 22, 2007
    Ontario, Canada
    There's a lot of holding and grabbing for sure, but right before the player in red falls, there's a bit of a hook on the foot by the player in black. I suspect that this is what Fischer will use as the "why it was only a caution" reason...
     
  4. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He'd still be wrong since there was obviously no opportunity or attempt to play the ball
     
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  5. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Impossible to answer the second question yet, but the answer to the first question is "yes." If the VAR believes a straight red card was missed, he can suggest an OFR (the protocols also allow for a VAR simply informing the CR it should be red and the CR could change without consulting the monitor, but it's hard to see that happening in the early evolutionary stages).

    As to the incident... it's exactly the type of call in MLS that is going to make DOGSO-red in the penalty area hard to sell for referees at every level below it in the US and Canada.
     
  6. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    At this point, the ONLY time we've seen the DOGSO red/PK call this season, unless I'm forgetting one, the suspension was subsequently rescinded. If this wasn't worthy of a red tonight, basically nothing is. I imagine that something like the clothesline from a couple weeks back would draw red in a DOGSO situation, but that's already borderline SFP. Beyond those sorts of fouls....??
     
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  7. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Well at least he gave a yellow at least. That's a start. On this same game in Ohio a couple of weeks ago, a similar play happened and the referee gave nothing.

    So far this season we've seen multiple plays where there either should have a been a DOGSO yellow or a straight red and nothing was given sometime in the same game. I remember in the first week of the season Unkle should have sent off a guy like twice, but the player ended up with no cautions in the game.
     
  8. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Can the disc co upgrade? If this isn't a send off, they should just scrap the possibility of a PK and DOGSO send off. This seems to me exactly the play they intended to be a send off when they wrote the revision.
     
  9. Midwest Ref

    Midwest Ref Member

    Jul 25, 2002
    DisCo has no authority over DOGSO plays.
     
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  10. pr0ner

    pr0ner Member+

    Jan 13, 2007
    Alexandria, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #10 pr0ner, May 27, 2017
    Last edited: May 27, 2017
    Stoica had a very "interesting" night with his two penalty calls in DC vs Vancouver.

    He bought an Ortiz dive to award United a penalty in the 60th minute. Video here: https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/m...hitecaps-fc-vs-dc-united/details/video/105086

    Then, in stoppage time, on a Vancouver free kick, Hamid clatters into Shea going for the ball. Video of the foul here: https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/m...hitecaps-fc-vs-dc-united/details/video/105118 Shea appears to get hit in the face by Hamid. However, play isn't initially stopped, and it isn't stopped until United has the ball at midfield. Then, after Shea is attended to, Stoica consults with Jason White and VERY belatedly awards Vancouver a penalty (this is not shown in the video; you can see Stoica running away from the area with the play, and where play was when he finally blew the whistle). Vancouver hits the post, and United win 1-0.

    Can Stoica go back that far after a play, especially when United had the ball at midfield before he stopped play for Shea's injury, and award a penalty?
     
  11. GlennAA11

    GlennAA11 Member+

    Jun 12, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    well, I guess he "can" because he did. It didn't appear that the AR signaled a foul at the time of the collision either.

    Personally I wish GKs were called more for fouls when they assault people. But I think Paul Gardner and I are alone on that island.
     
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  12. doog

    doog Member

    Jun 11, 2006
    I'm a partisan fan, but in my opinion Geiger had pretty tough match. My suspicion is that we'll see several plays in Borg's Instant Replay later this week (several missed yellows both ways, a potential red card on each side, a debatable handball against Marshall), but this one seems by far the most egregious:



    Another angle shows Geiger was right there looking at the play, so it wasn't that he didn't see it or was in a bad position. Can anybody here explain to me why Geiger doesn't see a problem here? Alonso is absolutely draped all over Adi, and then punches the ball with his hand. That's a PK, isn't it?
     
  13. Bootsy Collins

    Bootsy Collins Player of the Year

    Oct 18, 2004
    Capitol Hill
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's still not clear to me that there *was* a foul. None of the replay angles they showed last night were clear to me, and the MLS highlights seem worthless to tell what happened. At the time it looked like they both went up for a ball that both had rights to, and Shea came off the worse from the collision. At least one of the replays last night did show Hamid clearly focussed entirely on the ball. It was so unclear to me that I can't help but wonder if it was a make-up call, because there's no question that the earlier PK call in DCU's favor was completely bogus -- Ortiz dove, and Stoica bought it.
     
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  14. shawn12011

    shawn12011 Member+

    Jun 15, 2001
    Reisterstown, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The contact made with Ortiz was not nearly enough to make him go down.

    Then I have never seen an AR (Some schlep who wishes he were a Center Ref) call a keeper for contact with an attacker on a cross.
     
  15. Midwest Ref

    Midwest Ref Member

    Jul 25, 2002
    Hamid came for the ball and did not get it. That does not give him free reign to take out the forward. Personal attack on AR is not necessary either. Take it to the club forum. This is the place for discussion of calls from a referee perspective, not whining by fans about calls. If you want to give a reason that it should not be a pk, fine, but you have to do better than you have never seen it called by an AR.
     
  16. Mirepo

    Mirepo Member

    Nov 3, 2016
    Let's clear up a couple of things since the Dunning-Kruger effect is strong with this post:

    1) It was definitely a foul, and something that needs to be called more (at all levels). And this call likely had nothing to do with the earlier penalty. Why does it matter if *you* have never seen an AR call a goalkeeper for a foul in this type of situation?

    2) "Center ref" and AR are obviously two separate positions requiring different skills--both roles have aspects that are "easy", and others difficult. Different people prefer different positions and the associated challenges, and it's not because they're not skilled enough to do one or the other. Please at least understand some of these basic tenets of refereeing before lambasting an official who made a gutsy and correct call.
     
  17. jarbitro

    jarbitro Member+

    Mar 13, 2003
    N'Djamena, Tchad
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The replay on the mls site is not helpful, but it does look like a foul. If that's not "disporportanate force" i don't know what is. That said:
    1. I really have never seen a PK called that long after a play (if you don't count VAR).
    2. That makes me think it was probably not the SAR, but more likely the 4th or JAR, and I'm thinking 4th b/c there is no way that the JAR could have had a good angle.
    3. Speaking of angles, that was a poor position by Stocia on the cross. That's why he missed it.
    4. That said, I don't know where to position on those kind of free-kicks anyway. If you stay on the ball side, you miss tussling far post. But if you go to the top of the area, you miss exactly this. My favorite position is one I've seen Stott take, which is off the field at the endline, by the near post. But in an MLS game, that's obviously a bad idea. Baldomero and Marrufo usually drop way back (like 10 yards away from the area) in the middle of the field, while guys like Unkel and Villareal usually go in the area, too close for my liking.
    I'm curious where others would have positioned themselves.
     
  18. shawn12011

    shawn12011 Member+

    Jun 15, 2001
    Reisterstown, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Sorry it was a crap call made by a guy who is not skilled enough to be a center at that level. If he were skilled enough he would be getting center assignments. Sorry he may be a really nice guy but that was a crap call, especially by an AR.

    Oh and IT WAS NOT A FOUL!!!!
     
  19. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You should have left well enough alone. These posts are unacceptable here. Oh, and they also show total ignorance of how the AR-CR division get made in the US. It's embarrassing on your part, really.

    No more.
     
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  20. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, it was a foul. Deal with it.

    Otherwise, if you would like to learn more about how referees in this country are developed such as how at the national level they are split into the referee and assistant referee tracks, allowing them to narrow their focus to that particular role, I invite you to visit with your state referee administrator who would be much more knowledgeable on the subject than I.

    If you would like some MLS examples of individuals who went from AR to R (or vice versa) and a general idea of when that stopped being a common practice, please send me a private message detailing whatever info you would like to know.

    If all you want to do is come in here and prattle on about things you clearly have no knowledge of, by all means continue for as long as the mods decide to put up with you.
     
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  21. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  22. mrref

    mrref New Member

    May 16, 2016
  23. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
  24. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    No red, but incredible that a yellow was not produced. MLS referees are getting these decisions embarrassingly wrong in the penalty area when it comes to DOGSO.

    What are they doing in their monthly camps?

    Regardless, of it being DOGSO or not, it's still a reckless foul and a tactical foul as well. It's an easy yellow.

    It seems that there is just now a blanket policy of no yellow cards on penalty kick fouls unless it's DOGSO.

    Same thing with the Hamid punch/takeout of Shea in the Vancouver game. How is that not a yellow card? It is the definition of reckless at minimum and probably excessive force/endangering an opponent's safely, but no card was shown.

    I understand that IFAB/FIFA want a reduction in the amount of yellow and red cards produced in the penalty area, but I don't think they have in mind what MLS referees are doing this season.
     
  25. Bradley Smith

    Bradley Smith Member

    Jul 29, 2013
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Not in effect yet, but isn't this a change that the new laws are introducing? Unless it's DOGSO, PK and no card. If DOGSO, PK and yellow. If the blatant no chance to play the ball/push/hold DOGSO, then PK and red. Obviously the exception to this is if it's reckless or excessive force, then the normal card for those would apply.

    That said it certainly muddies the waters for everyone in the meantime...
     
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