2017 MLS Week 11 Referee Discussion

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by bhooks, May 9, 2017.

  1. bhooks

    bhooks Member

    Apr 14, 2015
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    05/10/2017

    Columbus Crew v Toronto FC
    MAPFRE Stadium (7:30pm ET)
    REF: SORIN STOICA
    AR1: Claudiu Badea
    AR2: Logan Brown
    4TH: Hilario Grajeda

    05/12/2017

    Houston Dynamo v Vancouver Whitecaps
    BBVA Compass Stadium (9:00pm ET)
    REF: FOTIS BAZAKOS
    AR1: Danny Thornberry
    AR2: Cameron Blanchard
    4TH: Daniel Radford

    05/13/2017

    Toronto FC v Minnesota United
    BMO Field (3:00pm ET)
    REF: ALLEN CHAPMAN
    AR1: Adam Wienckowski
    AR2: Jeremy Hanson
    4TH: Dave Gantar

    Colorado Rapids v San Jose Earthquakes
    Dick's Sporting Goods Park (4:00pm ET)
    REF: EDVIN JURISEVIC
    AR1: Jeffrey Greeson
    AR2: Mike Rottersman
    4TH: Baldomero Toledo

    Montreal Impact v Columbus Crew
    Stade Saputo Stadium (5:00pm ET)
    REF: SILVIU PETRESCU
    AR1: Daniel Belleau
    AR2: Andrew Bigelow
    4TH: Mark Kadlecik

    D.C. United v Philadelphia Union
    RFK Stadium (7:00pm ET)
    REF: CHRIS PENSO
    AR1: Peter Manikowski
    AR2: Oscar Mitchell-Carvalho
    4TH: Younes Marrakchi

    Orlando City v Sporting Kansas City
    Orlando City Stadium (7:00pm ET)
    REF: RICARDO SALAZAR
    AR1: Kyle Atkins
    AR2: Kyle Longville
    4TH: Rubiel Vazquez

    New England Revolution v Real Salt Lake
    Gillette Stadium (7:30pm ET)
    REF: HILARIO GRAJEDA
    AR1: Adam Garner
    AR2: Kevin Klinger
    4TH: Nima Saghafi

    Chicago Fire v Seattle Sounders
    Toyota Park (9:00pm ET)
    REF: JORGE GONZALEZ
    AR1: Jason White
    AR2: Brian Dunn
    4TH: Alejandro Mariscal

    05/14/2017

    Portland Timbers v Atlanta United
    Providence Park (4:00pm ET)
    REF: ALAN KELLY
    AR1: Matthew Nelson
    AR2: Ian Anderson
    4TH: Alex Chilowicz

    New York Red Bulls v LA Galaxy
    Red Bull Arena (6:00pm ET)
    REF: JOSE CARLOS RIVERO
    AR1: Corey Parker
    AR2: Jose Da Silva
    4TH: Caleb Mendez

    FC Dallas v New York City
    Toyota Stadium (8:00pm ET)
    REF: ROBERT SIBIGA
    AR1: Eric Weisbrod
    AR2: Jeff Muschik
    4TH: Daniel Radford

    http://www.proreferees.com/2017-mls-regular-season-assignments---week-11.php
     
  2. bhooks

    bhooks Member

    Apr 14, 2015
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Following his ankle injury last week, Jorge Gonzalez is replaced by Nima Saghafi

    Chicago Fire v Seattle Sounders
    Toyota Park (9:00pm ET)
    REF: JORGE GONZALEZ NIMA SAGHAFI
    AR1: Jason White
    AR2: Brian Dunn
    4TH: Alejandro Mariscal
     
  3. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And that will be his 5th whistle of the year. I'm not intimately familiar with the CBA, but I believe that triggers a clause where he now becomes part-time (or something similar--maybe another poster can shed light on the exact mechanics).

    If I have that right, it's important because it means Saghafi's slots are not "trial slots" anymore. That opens the door to other referees getting a first shot later in the season.
     
  4. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
  5. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why it shouldn't? No. Why it wasn't? I think there's a phenomenon where, when the foul gets closer to goal, referees don't tend to think of DOGSO immediately because so much else is going on in their head (penalty decision, goal kick/corner decision, potential collision, potential goal/no-goal decision). I look at that replay and I 100% back that it's a DOGSO red if you show the clip in a classroom. But I also look at it and admit I might not realize it for a few seconds or maybe longer. And then, once there's no demand for a red card, what do you do?

    The other penalty in this match is perhaps just as interesting:

    https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/m...us-crew-sc-vs-toronto-fc/details/video/103065

    I'd be very interested to learn if the yellow was classified as a DOGSO-yellow or an SPA-yellow. SPA in the penalty area can now (technically July 1st but it's clearly been in practice at the top levels for a while) only be given if there's no chance or attempt to play the ball. So if that's the call, I think Stoica is in a defensible position (we can make the regular arguments about whether or not the wide touch made this no longer an OGSO or not--I personally think it still was, but it's debatable). However, if he classified it as DOGSO-yellow, I think that's wrong. This is one of those examples where a goalkeeper is beat, has already missed the tackle/challenge, so deliberately fouls. If you determine it's an OGSO, I believe this is supposed to be red.

    Two more test cases that show how subjective and difficult this new change is. And as more and more DOGSO penalty incidents don't get red cards, it makes it more and more difficult for referees to give them at the lower levels.
     
  6. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I think it just comes down to the culture of soccer here. Since, I started refereeing here, the teaching has always kind of been to look for reasons to not give red cards for DOGSO, especially pre-PRO.

    I know it's kind of harsh and over exaggerating, but these type of plays are not just missed as much in Europe. I think that has to do with the fact that the criteria for DOGSO has always been much looser and less strict in Europe than here in the US. They sometimes took it to extremes over there. From years of watching Serie A and Spanish soccer, any foul in the penalty area was at least a yellow and anything close to red was given as red.

    Where here, the pendulum seems to be completely opposite of no cards in the penalty area. I can't tell you how many times assessors and other referees have told me that the "penalty is enough punishment."

    I don't understand how he doesn't even go yellow because it's clearly a tactical foul with no attempt to play the ball.

    As far as the other PK, I just watched it again and you're right there is zero attempt to play the ball there, but how on earth do you sell that?

    Another reason why you shouldn't be changing punishment due to location of the restart. If these guys who have monthly seminars and clinics can't get it right, what hope is there for the weekend warriors who go to one clinic a year to get it right?
     
  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think you're right here. And I think it still exists. I noticed this red from Rizzoli over the weekend.



    Can't help but think it's 100% technically right. But 100% would never be given in MLS and likely not the EPL either.
     
  8. fairplayforlife

    fairplayforlife Member+

    Mar 23, 2011
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Somewhat unrelated but aren't law Changes effective June 1st now regardless of World Cup year or not.
     
  9. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Maybe? I honestly don't remember but something like that sounds familiar.
     
  10. seattlebeach

    seattlebeach Member

    AFC Richmond
    May 11, 2015
    Not Seattle, Not Beach
    Marcos DeOliveira replaces Jurisevic due to injury.
     
  11. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hopefully just a minor setback, as Jurisevic is just coming back from a significant injury.
     
  12. sulfur

    sulfur Member+

    Oct 22, 2007
    Ontario, Canada
    Yes. The new book states (on pg 4), "Effective from 1st June 2017".
     
  13. Lucky Wilbury

    Lucky Wilbury Member

    Mar 19, 2012
    United States
    Am I the only one who noticed that the goal line camera is not precisely in line with the goal line? I'm going to assume that they are using GLT in Italy, maybe I'm wrong. The camera is either being used for either affecting actual calls or sending video to fans across the world; fans who will form an opinion immediately and without reasonable investigation. It's not properly positioned.

    On the far post, you can see the bottom of the post and you can see that the far top corner is not in line with the endline. As a result, the goal line, for video purposes, on the far side of the goal is going to be about 6" wide.

    I can also buy the argument that the far post is not perfectly vertical and is leaning slightly backward. Since the front of the top corner of the far post is in line with the end line, we could reasonably infer that those two items are on the same plane and that the bottom of the post is what is wrong.

    Yes, this is picky, but this is another case of introducing technology that seems like it's a panacea, but when enacted in an imperfect way, results in errant results. This really comes down to a stadium-by-stadium, case-by-case skill set that is needed by the operations people.

    Close will not cut it for me. The technology must be 100% perfect accurate if we're bringing it in.
     

    Attached Files:

  14. bhooks

    bhooks Member

    Apr 14, 2015
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    This is getting off topic, but based on a FIFA video from 2013, the camera system they tested used multiple cameras (HawkEye, the same company who does Tennis video replay).



    From my recollection, generally the Goal Line Tech replay you see on TV is a computer generated animation showing where the ball was, however sometimes the TV station will show the camera angle you are highlighting to show the real ball, then cut to the GLT decision based off the computer system.
     
  15. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Is my memory right that the effective date means for competitions that start June 1 or later?
     
  16. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No technology is 100% perfect accurate. Everything will have a margin of error.
     
  17. sulfur

    sulfur Member+

    Oct 22, 2007
    Ontario, Canada
    Mandatory for those unless the competition chooses to apply it.

    I seem to recall that at least one league (Australia perhaps?) did that with the 16-17 LotG...
     
  18. rh89

    rh89 Member

    Sep 29, 2015
    OR
    Oh boy, Nima Saghafi has a brutal couple minutes in CHI vs SEA. A penalty call for a clean tackle (imo), and then retook the penalty for an unclear reason - possibly keeper encroachment - but nothing that stood out as an actual breach of standards.
     
  19. Bootsy Collins

    Bootsy Collins Player of the Year

    Oct 18, 2004
    Capitol Hill
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I have some video footage I want to make absolutely sure Chris Penso sees. If someone can provide me with a home address that I can independently verify is his, I will pay that someone $500 in the manner of their choosing (Paypal, money order, whatever).

    Thanks in advance.
     
  20. rh89

    rh89 Member

    Sep 29, 2015
    OR
    What specific play are you talking about?
     
  21. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Tackle wasn't clean IMO. Trajectory was always going through the opponent's legs, but it's deceptive because obviously he got a touch on the ball. That doesn't excuse the careless nature of the tackle, though.

    As for the retake, the official word was encroachment by both teams, and photographic evidence supports the call despite espn's absolutely garbage camera work. I think the real debate is whether the encroachment was worth calling. Seemed awfully trifling to me.

    However, Frei pulled a pretty good Brianna Scurry coming off his line so I thought that alone warranted a retake, but it clearly wasn't the call being made based on the AR's behavior.
     
  22. jeffmefun

    jeffmefun Member

    Apr 26, 2001
    Quakeland, CA
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Any thoughts on Saghafi's second yellow on Jones? As a former, slow, abused defender / midfielder / nonref / clear homer, I've never appreciated calls against stationary defenders when attackers attempt to run through them...
     
  23. Bootsy Collins

    Bootsy Collins Player of the Year

    Oct 18, 2004
    Capitol Hill
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not.
     
  24. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Meh, Jones ran to that position, made a fruitless stab at the ball, and made sure he got in the way. Kind of a silly thing to do.
     
  25. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    GK encroachment also is a caution, so if there was no caution, that wasn't the call.

    It would be interesting to know if PRO has asked refs to crack down on encroachment
     

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