2017 MLS Cup Playoffs - Conference Semifinal Referee Discussion

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by bhooks, Oct 28, 2017.

  1. bhooks

    bhooks Member

    Apr 14, 2015
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    The assignments for the 2017 MLS Playoffs Conference Semifinals are:

    10/29/2017

    Vancouver Whitecaps v Seattle Sounders
    BC Place (8:30PM ET)
    REF: KEVIN STOTT
    AR1: Jeffrey Hosking
    AR2: Kermit Quisenberry
    4TH: Ricardo Salazar
    VAR: Mark Geiger

    10/30/2017

    New York Red Bulls v Toronto FC
    Red Bull Arena (7:00PM ET)
    REF: DREW FISCHER
    AR1: Phil Briere
    AR2: Claudiu Badea
    4TH: Sorin Stoica
    VAR: Allen Chapman

    Houston Dynamo v Portland Timbers
    BBVA Compass Stadium (9:30PM ET)
    REF: MARK GEIGER
    AR1: Joe Fletcher
    AR2: Mike Rottersman
    4TH: Hilario Grajeda
    VAR: Juan Guzman

    10/31/2017

    Columbus Crew v New York City FC
    MAPFRE Stadium (8:00PM ET)
    REF: ALAN KELLY
    AR1: Matthew Nelson
    AR2: Brian Dunn
    4TH: Ismail Elfath
    VAR: Chris Penso

    11/02/2017

    Seattle Sounders v Vancouver Whitecaps
    CenturyLink Field (10:30PM ET)
    REF: BALDOMERO TOLEDO
    AR1: Eduardo Mariscal
    AR2: Adam Garner
    4TH: Hilario Grajeda
    VAR: Drew Fischer

    11/05/2017

    Toronto FC v New York Red Bulls
    BMO Field (3:00PM ET)
    REF: CHRISTOPHER PENSO
    AR1: Jeremy Hanson
    AR2: Eric Boria
    4TH: Silviu Petrescu
    VAR: Ted Unkel

    New York City v Columbus Crew
    Yankee Stadium (TBD)
    REF: KEVIN STOTT
    AR1: Corey Rockwell
    AR2: Brian Poeschel
    4TH: Armando Villarreal
    VAR: Allen Chapman

    Portland Timbers v Houston Dynamo
    Providence Park (TBD)
    REF: ISMAIL ELFATH
    AR1: Kathryn Nesbitt
    AR2: Apolinar Mariscal
    4TH: Jose Carlos Rivero
    VAR: Edvin Jurisevic

    http://proreferees.com/2017/10/27/mls-assignments-playoffs-conference-semifinals/
     
  2. bhooks

    bhooks Member

    Apr 14, 2015
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I've been told the assignment for Houston-Portland are incorrect as they are a copy of the Houston-SKC game. Here is the crew I was told

    REF: Robert Sibiga
    AR1: Jeff Muschik
    AR2: Jason White
    4TH: Fotis Bazakos
    VAR: Chris Penso
     
  3. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Likely Penso in Houston and Grajeda at VAR in Columbus, but may be the reverse.
     
  4. jdmahoney

    jdmahoney Member

    Feb 28, 2017
    Plymouth, MN
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Can someone explain what Fischer did to earn a semifinal assignment??
     
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  5. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    The fact that there are two Canadian teams in the playoffs pretty much dictate that a Canadian referee has to be on one of their four games. If Toronto or Vancouver or both make the MLS Cup Final don't be surprised if Fischer is the 4th on the Final or one of the Canadian ARs (probably Fletcher) is on the match as well.
     
    akindc repped this.
  6. jarbitro

    jarbitro Member+

    Mar 13, 2003
    N'Djamena, Tchad
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #6 jarbitro, Oct 30, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017
    Kevin with two semi-final assignments. That's interesting.
    Also, I think Fotis should be the 4th in NY, and Chapman VAR (not Penso).
     
  7. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is correct, but looks like Bazakos and Stoics have swapped 4th official assignments
     
  8. akindc

    akindc Member+

    Jun 22, 2006
    Washington, DC
    There is no possible way that there was clear enough evidence to overturn the PK in the Portland/Houson game.
     
  9. Dayton Ref

    Dayton Ref Member+

    May 3, 2012
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    There looked to be one video, that of course they didn't show enough of, that showed contact with the ball first. Still, in my games it is a PK. You can't follow through rolling up the back of someone's legs like that.
     
  10. TxSooner

    TxSooner Member

    Aug 12, 2011
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    I’ve given up on the “clear and obvious” standard. What was used here was “would I have called it based upon what I see in the replay.”
     
  11. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I didn't think it was a penalty in real time from the other side of the stadium, but a clear and obvious error? Ehhh
     
  12. sulfur

    sulfur Member+

    Oct 22, 2007
    Ontario, Canada
    For me, I felt that there was more to overturn the PK in the NYRBvTFC match than there was in the HOUvPOR match...

    But hey, I'm not the VAR. :)
     
  13. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
  14. bhooks

    bhooks Member

    Apr 14, 2015
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    At halftime, 4th Ismail Elfath takes over for Alan Kelly. ESPN reporter says that Ismail asked multiple times if Kelly was feeling ok in the first half, and that he made the decision to sub out at halftime.

    Edit: It also appears he is still wearing the 4th PTT headset, so he will have to push a button on his side to talk to a member of his crew
     
  15. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  16. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So the swap of Kelly and Elfath led to some problems with communication on the red card. I get that. Still too long of a delay, but fine. I have a different question.

    The VR that resulted in the red card clearly shows that the misconduct was committed before the ball was put in play. VR is supposed to ensure the correct decision is taken and the restart is accurate. Play should have restarted with an NYFC corner kick. Instead, it restarted with the initially called CLB free kick. This is the kind of sloppy, technical mistake that must get ironed out over time. And I’d argue pretty strongly that a longer experimental phase was the time to iron out such issues.
     
  17. ptref

    ptref Member

    Manchester United
    United States
    Aug 5, 2015
    Bowling Green, KY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm pretty sure that he was wearing black leggings underneath his black shorts and black socks.
     
  18. GlennAA11

    GlennAA11 Member+

    Jun 12, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    hopefully at some point there will be at least a little bit of consistency from game to game.
     
  19. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    Leicester City FC
    Thoughts on the Callens red? I thought it was a good call but some NYC fans think no contact was made to head and should have been a yellow.
     
  20. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I had this debate with a referee off-site. Is this a generational or regional thing? I know they were leggings (or "tights"). They are still a garment that covers each of his legs completely, from his waist to ankles. In other words, pants.

    Anyway, it wasn't a criticism. Just an observation that it might be a first-time thing for an MLS CR. And also completely understandable. If the decision for Kelly not to continue happened after a few minutes into halftime and they didn't even have enough time to switch radios, then they definitely didn't have time for Elfath to get undressed and redressed simply to remove his pants--er, tights.
     
  21. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    100% red. He lined him up and brought his forearm/elbow to his head. Maybe he got him with more of the forearm than the elbow, somewhat mitigating what the result otherwise could have been, but it doesn't matter. It's a deliberate strike to the head, off-the-ball, which is violent conduct. Technically, there's enough there to send him off even if he misses completely (this is one of those situations where intent can matter, because "attempt to strike" is a red card if it is done in a violent manner).

    In my eyes, this is one of the justifiable reasons for having VARs and VR. This is the sort of obvious red card incident that referees can't always see clearly, so video helps. Plus, the presence of VARs should help reduce such behavior over time. Specific to this incident, my issues with VAR/VR are:

    1) The time it took to get this right. Part of that was clearly due to the fact the radios weren't switched, but it still took over 3 minutes on a foul that Elfath called. We aren't there yet, but we have to reach the point one day where the VAR can simply say "it's violent conduct, he has to go." That would save--if radios are working--over 2 minutes in a situation like this.

    2) The restart was wrong. There's very little excuse for that, other than the fact that VR is still new and this was a particularly high-pressure situation for a number of reasons. Only practice will ensure errors like that are not made.
     
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  22. ChelseaSounder

    Nov 5, 2009
    Seattle, WA, USA
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Do they have a little acronym checklist for VAR stoppages? Whatever that is should end with "restart"
     
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  23. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Heck, they don't need an acronym, the VAR is sitting at a desk and can have an actual check list.

    My guess would be that this had already taken a long time, and that led to rushing the wrap up so the restart wasn't thought about.
     
  24. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I wonder if he was still "getting his legs" so to speak. Mental preparation has to be a bit different for a ref suddenly taking over the CR role with little to no warmup time (depending on when the call was made at halftime) compared to one who knows for a couple of days they have a game kicking off at X time on X date with teams A and B. Combine that with the radio snafu and pulling a red 7 minutes in and I'm sure he just wanted to move forward.
     
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  25. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You're probably both right. But another aspect is simply that this isn't a situation where a referee would instinctively reconsider the restart. What I mean is, when VR prompts a penalty to be waved off, the CR and VAR have to start thinking about when the whistle went and then reacting accordingly because things are obviously changing and there isn't going to be a PK. If VAR pulls back a goal, same thing to an extent, because we definitely aren't having a kickoff.

    In this situation, the VAR and VR were used to ensure misconduct was applied correctly to an incident that Elfath saw and called. And he saw and called it correctly, save for the lack of misconduct. So when VR confirms a red card should be shown, it's not natural to re-think the restart unless Elfath had doubts right from the beginning about whether or not the ball was in play when the misconduct happened. Either he had no such doubts, or he just forgot about them over the 4 minutes that this entire episode took.
     
    JasonMa repped this.

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