I think it's absolutely silly that we are rehashing a decision that happened over EIGHT years ago and was discussed in ad nauseam on here on multiple threads on multiple times. Since we are debating it again, I'll weigh in.. While I think aek viewpoints on the Oliver penalty are wrong/dangerous and, almost, start leaning towards match fixing/match manipulation, he does have a point on the De Jong challenge and there is A LOT of truth in what he says. Was Webb screened? Probably. Did he see the full extent of the challenge? I can buy that he didn't. Webb was a referee with over 10+ players of experience of refereeing at the highest levels. To tell me that he couldn't put two and two together even if he was screened is absurd. Any novice state referee could have recognized that that game was spiraling out of control. I'm sure Webb did too. If there ever was a game that "needed" a red card, that was it. By that point there were several orange/red card worthy tackles. As aek says, "what did he think happened?" He saw a flying kick, he must have seen Alonso's head whip back like it's a car accident and he must have seen him hold his chest as a result of the challenge. Where did he think De Jong connected? On his ankle? I understand the English philosophy of "you only give what you see," but I just have a hard time believing that Webb, with all his experience, was not able to put two and two together and take into account the way the game was spiraling out of control and not come to an easy conclusion that it should have been a red card is hard to believe. Listen to his comments before the game and go watch the FIFA video of the documentary of the Final in 2010. There is a clip of him meeting with the official assessor/match delegate prior to the game and they are discussing how to handle the game. He basically implies and almost tells him to not throw players out and not give early cautions. There is a reason why he got all the big games during his career and it wasn't due to him producing red cards. Webb isn't going to come out and say, "yeah I saw it, but I didn't want to produce a red card in the World Cup Final." He's not going to tell the world how the sausage is made at the highest levels of the game. Webb isn't the only referee to "bottle" or miss a big sending off in a big match and he won't be the last one. Look at Rizzoli during the last World Cup Final and during his Champions League Final in London. He literally saw Aguero, sitting on a yellow, practically punch Bastian Schweinsteiger in the face and leave him bloodied and he decided to just give him a talking to. It was even more unbelievable than the Webb decision. It was incredible! in the CL Final, he saw Ribery commit and act of blatant violent conduct and he just decided to talk to him. It was crazy. Look at the reaction to Clattenburg's comments about wanting Chelsea to "self-destruct." We were all appalled, including me, and many others in the media and even players, but he was telling us something that we, probably, knew, deep down, was the truth about the highest levels of the game.
Well the facts you presented aren't "facts" at all, unless you want to debate what constitutes a "fact". I'm Game. I'm guessing not many in this forum want to go that route. FACT-Webb is not screened by Alonso FACT-DeJong goes into Alonso's chest area with a flying karate style kick STUDS UP...about a meter or so below where the ball was at the point of impact/header. FACT-ALL the considerations for a straight red are there, even if he's not sure exactly what happened. If Webb isn't sure what happened, then what is he giving a caution for? Just a fall back card? The argument that Webb is making publicly is utterly absurd, and I'm his biggest fan. I understand why he's doing so, but that's NOT what actually happened and we all know it. Now if there's anyone in this thread that's going to tell me he/she has never reffed in context, please step forward.
The discussion isn't about the Webb/DeJong topic, it's about officials refereeing in context. The 2010 WC final is simply a glaring example of it, which many people on this thread apparently are attempting to deny or pooh pooh
Like straw men? Not a single person on here has said anything remotely close to that. I criticized what could be either fan speak or naivete in saying that you wouldn't make a call because you don't want to decide a match. That is utter nonsense as not making a call has the same impact as making a call--it just helps a different team.
I think it’s fascinating some believe that the benatia foul has discretionary room to be a no call. The contact in the back is modest but for Pete’s sake benatia leaves his feet and swings through the attacker with no opportunity to play the ball in a legal fashion. I’m not to sfp here but a flying kick with contact to the ribs from straight behind the opponent is reckless. So there’s nothing marginal about it. The challenge is at least reckless, and if you go with “disagree one level is ok, two levels we have a problem” then not giving the penalty is not an option, regardless of context. If it was just the barge in the back, I think there’s more gray area. I enjoy watching Oliver. He is present, accurate, and firm. And he had the endurance and focus to be those things in the last moments of a huge game.
This thread is too consequential and there's a lot of pressure. Therefore, no call seems like the best call from me.
I'm amazed the second part of the foul is being forgotten by so many people. The push in the back is a foul because it unfairly prevents the RM player from controlling the ball four yards from goal. But even if you don't agree with that, Benatia then swings his leg around at chest level, does not get any part of the ball (best I can tell), and then appears to kick the attacker in the chest. Also a foul.
I would LOVE to have seen Çakır toss Buffon, toss Benatia, toss the substitute Juve player who got in AR1’s face, and then blow for full time after CR7 buried the pen. Would have been epic.
Just to toss another question out there, I am certain I saw Sergio Ramos (who was in the stands) down on the touch line/team area towards the end of the match. He was hiding behind some piece of equipment. Just curious, but at that level does serving a suspension mean a touchline ban or was he allowed to be there? I saw something yesterday that suggested he was not allowed there during the match.
UEFA Disciplinary Code is here: https://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFile...CompDisCases/02/48/23/06/2482306_DOWNLOAD.pdf 15.1.d or 15.1.h would be what applies to Buffon. It's either minimum 3 matches or 15 matches. I would lean heavily toward this being classified as a minimum 3 match ban. Relevant info on Ramos seems less clear. Technically speaking, if he's not on the roster he shouldn't be in the technical area (and rosters, at this level, include everything like physios and the "delegates" who help the fourths with the substitution boards). So in that regard, he's almost certainly considered a violation. Whether or not it's a violation that means the suspension wasn't fully served seems doubtful (otherwise, it would be explicit in the Disciplinary Code, I would think).
Thanks. I looked at the Code earlier. Coaches/managers its clear. You cannot be there. Players (not player coaches) seemed to be left out.
Sounds like Skomina and Mazic both put in good performances today. Kuipers' team had a very tight offside decision for the final goal (counterattack when the goalkeeper was at the other end of the field so was no the 2LD) that people are claiming was wrong, but I think was much closer than is being stated. Either way, I don't think it affects things. UEFA must be breathing a sigh of relief. At the very least, it has 6 high-level officials that can credibly be assigned now. And then it has plenty of referees in that sort of second tier that can easily be given an EL semi. No assigning crisis for the final 10 matches.
Excellent article from Mark Clattenburg in which he both defends Oliver and takes public and personal responsibility about the "but there's no English referee at the WC" nonsense. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...s-being-put-under-too-much-pressure-0b6tc6wl3 Would still be absolutely beyond livid if I was one of Clattenburg's ARs. But at least it's a nice article.