2015 U.S. Open Cup schedule

Discussion in 'US Open Cup' started by newtex, Apr 8, 2015.

  1. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Country:
    United States
    That's a two way street. CS also isn't interested in working with the Rapids and partnered with one of the USSDA competitors in the Denver market.
     
    kenntomasch repped this.
  2. newtex

    newtex Member+

    May 25, 2005
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    #77 newtex, May 28, 2015
    Last edited: May 28, 2015
    The USL looks to be headed for a lot of teams (more than 24, maybe a lot more) so no matter what round they enter the USOC it is going to be interesting. Of course there are going to be a lot of MLS teams soon so that is a factor as well.

    Here's an idea. Have the early rounds be just intra-league or division until you get down to 8 teams from each division and then have a mixed tournament for the last 32 teams.

    Preliminary Tournament
    Amateur - 64 teams enter, they play each other in 3 rounds until there are 8 left.
    USL - 32 teams or whatever, they have 2 qualifying rounds to get to 8.
    NASL - probably just one qualifying round to get to 8.
    MLS - 2 or 3 rounds to get to 8.

    Final Tournament
    32 team tournament over 5 rounds.
    4 regions with two teams from each Preliminary. Make it roughly geographic and then either seed or blind draw.
    Then the final four draw blind across the country.


    That system would make it much easier to expand. You just add teams to the Preliminary Tournaments but keep the Final Tournament the same. It would function more like how the NCAA conference and national tournaments work together.

    It would also mean that 8 really good amateur teams would be in the final 32 every year. Those teams would be playing higher stakes games deep into the tournament.
     
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  3. aperfectring

    aperfectring Member+

    Jul 13, 2011
    Hillsboro, OR
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    That's essentially what used to be done, but with the "preliminary" portion of it as being unofficial.

    Personally, I don't like this. It would make it much harder for a "better" MLS team to make the tournament proper than for an amateur team. As USL expands, we can just expand the amateur participation, and have there be 2 rounds between when USL enters, and the next group of teams enter.
     
  4. Blando13

    Blando13 Member+

    Dec 4, 2013
    Lee's Summit, MO
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Country:
    United States
    It would ... but it would also allow MLS teams that didn't really want to bother with the US Open Cup to bow out easily ... by losing to another MLS team. It would weed out the teams that didn't have the depth to take it seriously before the "proper" part of the tournament started.

    It's interesting concept for sure. Lot of positive and negatives. I would hope that the 32 teams would be drawn without any restrictions (MLS teams could be drawn against each other, same for other leagues).
     
  5. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Country:
    United States
    That was the Rapids MO for literally years. It didn't sit well with the fans and made the whole competition an afterthought.
     
  6. Blando13

    Blando13 Member+

    Dec 4, 2013
    Lee's Summit, MO
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Country:
    United States
    And there will always be clubs or coach's or some that don't put much stock into it ... so why force them? It could set it up so that the 32 in the proper tournament all want to be there and feel like it's a privilage ... but who knows ... there's likely other options of format that make sense too.
     
  7. Blando13

    Blando13 Member+

    Dec 4, 2013
    Lee's Summit, MO
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Country:
    United States
    Kenn, I've agreed with you in the past with the line "NASL has issues, but it's still the better (over USL) of the two on the field" when people would say they're essentially the same. Does this somewhat change the narrative? I still think if USL teams played in the NASL most would struggle and if NASL teams played in the USL they'd do quite well ... but I think it's closer than I once thought.

    Really, I think it means that the talent pool at that sub MLS quality level is bigger/deeper than we thought. There are a lot of players (and I'm talking about the american players that fill out each league for the most part) that can play at that level if given the opportunity. The NASL clubs can bring in better foreign talent to put around those Americans ... which is why I still think the NASL is better on the field (because of the money they spend) ... but the depth of the pool is deeper (expansion in the USL certainly didn't hurt those clubs and spread the talent too thin).
     
  8. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Country:
    United States
    Did I say that?

    I think overall, when NASL teams are paying more for players, they're getting more skilled players. At the micro level, though, that doesn't mean a WHOLE lot when it comes to head-to-head matchups in a knockout tournament. (I DID look at which MLS teams paid their higher-paid players more in one round of the cup a few years back and there was a correlation, which may or may not have been causative.)

    This is kind of like that silly "How would an MLS team do in the EPL?" parlor game. Well, are you going to have the Galaxy operate under MLS rules and fly in and out of LAX every other week, or are you going to base them in London's West End and have them be able to get players any other EPL team could get?

    If USL teams suddenly could pay D2 wages, they could probably attract players who are better - over the course of a season - than they have now (though everybody misses on some of these guys). That's why I am skeptical that if USL suddenly becomes D2, they're going to be D2 without paying D2 wages and having D2 front offices. (The same reason the "NASL is Division II in name only" trope is ludicrous as long as they're trading players for hotel rooms and not getting a mini-fridge for cost reasons.)

    Welp....there are 35 teams at that combined D2/D3 level at the moment, the most there have been since 2002, and we're probably a bit better at producing professional-grade soccer players in this country now than we were then, so that's not a big surprise that we have enough guys to fill 700 or so roster slots. But we filled more than 1,500 in 1998, so you tell me.

    I don't know who doesn't think the talent pool is decent sized. There's a big pool. A lot of the water molecules are indistinguishable from each other, though.

    As for having preliminary "rounds" to get to the Cup proper, well....

    ( a ) There used to be qualification rounds (and games) in all the leagues. Especially when it came to MLS, people kvetched because not everybody was in the tournament proper. So now everybody is. So now we bitch about how unwieldy the tournament is.
    ( b ) There is a finite amount of time in which to do this, y'all know that, right? We can't go adding even more and more fixtures to teams' schedules just so we get to someone's ideal of a "pure" Open Cup. Let 'em frigging play. It's not like anybody seems to give a rat's ass anyway, given the crowd numbers from last night.
     
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  9. bgix

    bgix Bad Penny

    Jun 29, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Country:
    United States
    I wouldn't like this at all. The fun of the USOC is in my opinion, to maximize the chances for minnows to knock off higher division sides. What is the fun of adding more games against teams you play all the time anyway?
     
    The One X and flange repped this.
  10. CaptainOpprobrium

    Apr 16, 2006
    The new NASL is just keeping up with the old NASL's practice of not competing in the USOC.
     
    MLSinCleveland and BostonRed repped this.
  11. newtex

    newtex Member+

    May 25, 2005
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    I was trying to solve two problems.

    As we add more professional teams then the tournament will take longer and it will be harder to enter the USL and MLS teams all in the same round. Those teams will have to stagger or face each other in their first rounds. We are seeing this already with lots of early USL-USL matchups and the SEA-POR MLS game in the 4th round. The amateur teams can't start playing any sooner (some barely play at all before the current tournament starts) so the tournament will have to go longer into the year.

    My suggestion would mean that the Finals tournament could start at the same time as the current 4th round but the Preliminary Tournaments could be played at varying times depending on the different leagues.

    This year, so far, 2 amateur teams survived to face NASL teams and 1 will get to play a MLS team. Lots of them did get to play USL teams but that might change if USL moves up a division depending on how things are organized.

    My suggestion would have some intra-league games early, yes, but a chance for more inter-league games later. The round of 32 would have 8 amateur teams with a good chance to face an MLS team.

    We'll see how the tournament evolves. This is probably not the direction that the USSF will go but I think it would make for an interesting tournament.
     
  12. aperfectring

    aperfectring Member+

    Jul 13, 2011
    Hillsboro, OR
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    When we get to the later rounds of MLS involvement, we have up to a month between games. There is plenty of time in the "season" of the US Open Cup to have more rounds.

    The US Open Cup has become more and more like domestic cup competitions from other countries. They are following a very traditional format by giving the higher division clubs a "bye" until later rounds. I personally like this. I want the Open Cup to officially include all professional teams, and also to include many amateur teams, and give those amateur teams a shot at upsetting professional teams at each level. I don't think we should manufacture those matchups, though. They should have to "fight their way through".
     
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  13. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Country:
    United States
    Some attendance numbers from Round 4, Part I:

    1,106 in Dallas (at TCU)
    3,544 in Chicago
    4,022 in Seattle
    5,585 in New York
    8,208 in Salt Lake City
    13,196 in San Jose
    19,298 in Kansas City
    N/A in Philadelphia
    N/A in Denver, though the local paper estimated it at 2,000, which makes sense for many reasons

    8 of 9 home sides advanced, making it 44/68 (64.7%) for the tournament.

    With Richmond, Pittsburgh, Charleston, Charlotte and Austin still to play tonight, the USL is 27-13-4.
    With the Cosmos still standing, the NASL is 2-7-1.
     
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  14. Prosoccercdn

    Prosoccercdn Member+

    Aug 6, 2011
    Club:
    FC Edmonton
    Country:
    Canada
    Tuesday’s July 16 Round 4 Results

    Seattle Sounders 1-3 Portland Timbers (AET)
    San Jose Earthquakes 2-2 Sacramento Republic (San Jose win 6-5 on PKs)
    Real Salt Lake 2-1 Seattle Sounders II
    Colorado Rapids 4-1 Colorado Springs Switchbacks
    Chicago Fire 1-0 Louisville City FC (AET)
    FC Dallas 4-1 Oklahoma Energy FC
    Sporting Kansas City 1-0 Saint Louis FC
    Philadelphia Union 0-0 Rochester Rhinos (Philadelphia win 3-1 on PKs)
    New York Red Bulls 3-0 Atlanta Silverbacks

    Usl loses all 6 matches yesterday
    NASL's Atlanta loses its match vs NYRB
    MLS teams win 9 matches
     
  15. aperfectring

    aperfectring Member+

    Jul 13, 2011
    Hillsboro, OR
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Here's the 4th round update of my ever popular* league ELO rankings.

    *not at all true

    Some basic info, for those who want it:
    1. These rankings use all USOC games since 1996 to determine the relative strengths of the leagues. The names used below just represent the current names of leagues at that level. In reality the leagues have changed around a lot, and what is now NASL used to be USL D-1, and the A League before it. Similarly for all the other levels.
    2. There are bound to be mistakes back in the history, but the beauty of ELO rankings is that they are self-correcting over time, so the "actual strengths" probably aren't too far off from this right now, even with errors in older competitions.
    3. The actual results used are as follows:
    a. Game finishes in regulation with a result: goals scored
    b. Game finishes after extra time with a result: goals scored
    c. Game goes to penalty kicks: goals scored before the penalty kicks. The game is "recorded" as a tie.
    4. A home team has its rating raised by 100, and the change in ratings for each of the teams is calculated based on the result of the game, and the relative difference between the two ratings. This means that currently, we would expect an NASL team hosting an MLS team to be slightly in favor of the MLS team, but not significantly so.
    5. The average change in score for any individual game is about 7. This means that one league goes up by 7, and the other down by 7.
    6. There is no way to account for the fact that many MLS teams play 'B' or 'C' sides in the first few rounds they participate. I can only base it on the teams fielded.

    RoundMLSNASLUSLPDLNPSLUSASA/etc
    2014177416401576137713331301
    R1177416401576137313141324
    R2177416401569135613051357
    R3177415861633134313021363
    R4179315841616134313021362


    MLS teams did mostly what we'd expect of MLS teams, leaving only 2 lower division teams around. PSA Elite's cinderella run is over, after losing to the Galaxy. As you can see, though, even a 6-1 loss wasn't enough to significantly impact the USASA's now final rating for the year. Most of MLS's gain this round was due to the multitudes of wins against USL competition.
     
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  16. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Country:
    United States
    Some crowd figures from last night:

    3,459 in Charleston
    3,988 in Pittsburgh
    4,040 in Richmond
    4,055 in Los Angeles
    11,446 in Hempstead

    No word on Houston or New England.

    Average for the 12 (out of 16) games this round I have numbers for: 6,829 (Colorado's 2,000ish would bring that down a little, but I don't have an official number).

    Average for the 29 (out of 75) games this tournament I have numbers for: 4,579.
     
  17. newtex

    newtex Member+

    May 25, 2005
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
  18. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Nassau County, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    United States
    That's 2.05 times the attendance the Red Bulls got the day before and 1.22 times the attendance the Cosmos got hosting the Red Bulls last year despite the fact that last year's game was on a Saturday.
     
  19. newtex

    newtex Member+

    May 25, 2005
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    And the 2nd biggest home crowd of the season for the Cosmos. Although, I'd guess the NYCFC fans helped a bit with the total more than any other visiting team.

    Game 1 - 12,550
    Game 2 - 5,279
    Game 3 - 3,383
    Game 4 - 5,032
    Open Cup #1 - 1,394
    Game 5 -7,353
    Open Cup #2 - 11,446
     
  20. newtex

    newtex Member+

    May 25, 2005
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    The Regional groups have been announced for the rest of the tournament.

    http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/artic...-geographic-groupings-thursdays-round-16-draw

    East
    D.C. United
    New York Cosmos (NASL)
    New York Red Bulls
    Philadelphia Union

    South
    Charlotte Independence (USL)
    Chicago Fire
    Columbus Crew SC
    Orlando City

    Central
    Colorado Rapids
    FC Dallas
    Houston Dynamo
    Sporting Kansas City

    West
    LA Galaxy
    Portland Timbers
    Real Salt Lake
    San Jose Earthquakes

    The draw for pairings and hosting is at 11 am EDT today.
     
  21. newtex

    newtex Member+

    May 25, 2005
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    I believe this is the full bracket.

    Higher teams on the bracket host.

    EAST
    1. NY Red Bulls
    3. NY Cosmos
    -------------------
    2. Philadelphia
    4. DC United
    -------------------------------------
    SOUTH
    1. Chicago
    3. Charlotte
    ---------------
    2. Orlando
    4. Columbus

    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    CENTRAL
    1. Kansas City
    3. Dallas
    ---------------
    2. Houston
    4. Colorado
    ---------------------------------------
    WEST
    1. Salt Lake
    3. Portland
    ---------------
    2. San Jose
    4. LA Galaxy

    The Final host, either the EAST/SOUTH winner or CENTRAL/WEST winner, will be drawn later.
     
  22. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Country:
    United States
    Wow. That's a whole lot of MLS teams.
     
  23. fridge46

    fridge46 Member

    Oct 23, 2011
    Video of the draw:



    USSoccer really like using envelopes. I was half expecting one of the cards to say "Happy Birthday Joan, have a great day. Lots of love, Michael", and some lady receiving a letter in the mail with "Real Salt Lake" stuck onto it!
     
  24. newtex

    newtex Member+

    May 25, 2005
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Fifth Round
    Home team first, times are ET

    Tuesday, June 30
    Orlando City (MLS) v. Columbus Crew (MLS) 7:30 pm
    Philadelphia Union (MLS) v. DC United (MLS) 7:30 pm
    Chicago Fire (MLS) v. Charlotte Independence (USL) 8:30 pm
    Houston Dynamo (MLS) v. Colorado Rapids (MLS) 8:30 pm

    Wednesday, July 1
    NY Red Bulls (MLS) v. NY Cosmos (NASL) 7:30 pm
    Sporting Kansas City (MLS) v. FC Dallas (MLS) 8:30 pm
    Portland Timbers (MLS) v. Real Salt Lake (MLS) 10:00 pm
    San Jose Earthquakes (MLS) v. LA Galaxy (MLS) 10:30 pm

    Winners advance to the Quarterfinals on July 21-22
     
  25. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Country:
    United States

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