But it's not even the same players. I'm not even sure what you're talking about. Every coach gives completely different instruction to the players but you won't know them in detail, no? Do you know what kind of tactical cage he set up against Messi against Argentina? He already made "visible" tactical switches like the one during the final of the Asian Cup. He has choosen his players, wiping away the world cup central defense. So I don't get your point. Should the players do captain Tsubasa stuff now? Shoot from midfield? You can only can judge by the results, and they're that. First victory against Argentina and France ever, Asian cup won, and now the usual qualification as first team.
Hara choose to put in Lee and won the AFC Cup 2011? I missed it. And be honest: if Nagatomo had been less selfish and assist to Honda the match would be finished with a victory for Japan and a brilliant move by Zac.
1- The players and formation which played against Argentina and in AC were suggested to him by Hara, and is the same Hara used before Zac's arrival. 2- There is no coach in the World that can't make a single tactical switch once in a while, like the one you've mentioned against Australia in the AC, What matters is if he can make such a decisive tactical switch every time he needs to.
Is it because of personnel quality or because of Zac's tactics? What I'm trying to say, that we have got an excellent group of players shaping-up as a strong unit for a couple of years, and having a great success in NT and club level, that whatever coach will be theirs they'll accomplish great results.
It's a bit hard to go and pick up players when you haven't ever watched a JLeague match before, don't you think? The match itself was prepared by him. Today's lineup and tactics have zero to do with Hara's. No, what matters are the results. It means he made enough "switches" to win Asian Cup, to win in France, to win against Argentina, South Korea, trash Jordan 6-0, to qualify for the world cup today now apply that question to every match since JFA was born, good luck!
Some people think the italian is good, some people dont. We need to learn to live with it, aka different opinions. For now... we could use some celebration.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/soccer-honda-drives-japan-world-cup-qualification-151957887.html the best part: Honda, Kagawa and Yasuhito Endo all were close to scoring in the first 20 minutes but Ryoichi Maeda was quiet in attack as Japan's lack of a world class striker was evident again. the writer should switch "quiet" with "invisible" though.
OK, Didn't Zac inherited this starting line-up and formation from Hara, Can you deny it? He might makes changes from time to time, but to make it clear: Did Zac make a player he brought to the NT a starter? Well, except Yoshida he didn't, and you have to question yourself did Yoshida brought by Zac or by Hara? The results came from tactics. By the way, what I'm trying to emphasize and you didn't get yet is that Japan has a great group of talented players, and many talented players coming up through the youth ranks, that even an average coach could win continental trophies with them, and record a significant results from time to time against top teams. For me I think Japan could easily accomplish what did they accomplished since the 2010 WC with or without Zac. For example, Zico was the worst JNT coach since the 1998 WC, yet he won the Asian Cup, drew against Brazil in 2005 Confederations Cup, and Japan became the first team to qulaify to the 2006 WC during his era, does that mean he was great? No Does that mean we have to give credit to him? Double NO. In my point of view Japan is one of the top 20 team in the world, and since the 1998 WC most of its success in international level didn't came because they have world class coaches, no, but because they have a whole lot of talented players to accomplish this great results. Zac has proved his inability to intgrate a back-up for Honda, nor did he integrate a back-up for Endo-Hasebe combo. Can you tell me what he'll do when Honda, Endo or Hasebe is injured? The same could be said about the striker position, Maeda is a player he inherited from Hara, O.K. he tried Lee, but you have to think if it is him or Hara that picked him? ... you might add that he picked Havenaar, and so what??? The fact is that Maeda has lost his form (maybe a problem of aging), Havenaar doesn't have a good time with the NT and Tadanari fall out of the radar. What he did to address this problem, ha? Did he call-up any alternatives and try if they'll fit in the international level or not, he has numerous of meaningless friendlies (during the last year) to address striker, AMF, DMF problems but he didn't? Is that an act of a potent coach, No? And about his tactics, He uses the same 4-4-2 (you can consider it 4-2-3-1) used by Hara, so What is the new thing he added to the team? O.K. he tried his favorite 3-4-3 sometimes but It didn't work, did he tried other options? No. Did he add another dimensions to his player by giving them a variety of duties, such as switching positions and etc? No. Really, Is that What did you mean that he added something to the team?? In that sense Zico will be better than him because he added more Anyway its time to celebrate, and pray that your PATRIOT will correct his mistakes.
Every foreign coach in the world would have been forced to make a lineup with some feedback. But what does that mean? Nothing, of course. It's not like if Hara wasn't there Kagawa wouldn't have been called up by Zac anyway for example, right? And the lineup was completely changed after those matches. “In the last month, I tried to attend as many [J. League] games as I could to learn about the Japanese players,” Zaccheroni said. “But in such a short period of time, it’s hard to get to know them all, and so I’ve decided to form the squad around the one we had for our two most recent matches.” As if he could wipe everybody off... Here's Hara's squad http://www.jfa.or.jp/eng/topics/2010/270.html Here's Zac-with-Hara consult squad http://www.jfa.or.jp/eng/topics/2010/316.html Then from the Asian Cup everything changes. By Zac, of course. He himself said multiple times that it was a personal gamble as he "impressed him". Anyway it's not only about Yoshida, of course, but nice try! Konno did play a few matches but wasn't a starter. Tulio and Nakazawa were wiped off immediately without calling them ever again. Maeda became another starter under Zac. Was Kagawa a starter? No he wasn't- but hey! Since Hara played him before Zac it must be surely because Hara instructed Zac to call him up, hehehe! Uchida, Nagatomo, nobody competent would have changed them, same for Endo and Hasebe and Honda, Okazaki. This has nothing to do with Hara. Who picked Tadanari Lee, the man who brought us the Asian Cup? Who picked Gotoku Sakai even before he moved to Europe? Who picked Kiyotake even before he moved to Europe? Who picked up Takahashi now? Who picked up Havenaar now? And so on, and so on. Only 5 players from the 2010WC were still starters one year after it... But hey, we can keep on playing this little game: Yuki Abe was a regular at the world cup, and Zac barely called him up a couple of times. Mu Kanazaki was included in "Hara's selection" for the Argentina and SK friendly: never to be seen ever again. Takuya Honda was called up until the Asian cup, he wasn't ever again. And there are more, like Morimoto, Sekiguchi, etc And you still claim that it was by Hara? I mean... really? Well, no, results come from tactics and from picking the right players (and sometimes even a bit of luck =), goes for everyone ) Aaah, many talented players coming from the youth ranks, yes! That's it! Wait, what is this? I wonder how it happened? Maybe the selection and the coach were poor? But that must surely happened once, right? I mean with all the talents, these world class players... wait! We didn't make it to the u20 WC through 2010's AFC neither! Oh, and in 2008 neither! But wait! How come from 1998 to 2002 we made it in the top 4? Maybe it has to do with coach and selection. Or you mean like South Korea who just drew with Lebanon and got destroyed by Croatia and are going to change coach? An average coach would just make the team collapse even with the right players, let alone win against top teams. That's just your opinion based on nothing though, since we'll never know. Maybe with another coach it was possible. Sure. Maybe with Guardiola it was, maybe with Okada it wasn't. Well, you're wrong. Zico knew JLeague very well, and that's something that helps a lot. And he knew Brazil very well too! He was also in his life a fantastic player who surely played under good coaches. And last, it's not like a team is managed only by the coach, you know it, right? Reports and stuff, how they work.... Also: how come those "fantastic players that would do the same under a bad coach" did well at the Confederations and shitty at the world cup? Answer: because a coach plays only a limited part in football matches anyway. You can judge him only on the results, in the end. So Zico was a good coach until before the world cup, in a sense. Okada was a good coach in 2004 because he won the league with Marinos but he was shit in 2005, 2006, because he got 9th? Then was amazing again because Japan made it out of the knockout stage? Do you get my point? Sure! Last time, with Honda injured, we beat France. Oh... but we also lost to Jordan! Doesn't matter if Endo threw away a PK and Yoshida didn't foul defender! Damn you Zac... when we win, it's because you're lucky to have good players even when Honda isn't there. When we lose, well, it's because you're bad Uh? No it isn't. He wasn't even called up under Hara... Maeda is a player whom Zac believed in, so much to even make him the new JNT starter for the first time ever. Are you serious? Do you have any source on this you care to share with us? This comment is so crazy that I don't even know if I should answer properly. So he should have changed a module that works well because japanese sidebacks and wingers are strong and offensive because otherwise it could look as "already used by Hara" ? So Moyes is going to add nothing to Manchester United if he uses Ferguson's 4-4-2? Why should he try other options? 3-4-3 is another module that works well on the wings. There is no reason to try anything else at all. Oooh! Did you attend the last JNT meeting? Care to share with us their duties on the pitch? I'm curious to know the detailed instructions. Hint for you: the team changed duties today when Kurihara went in. You may also read here http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/...pling-with-zaccheronis-strategy/#.Ua5Tz5zmxxU how some players lamented that the instructions are difficult (lol). Take a good read at the last line too.
JNT Under Okada KawashimaKomano - Nakazawa - Tulio - NagatomoHasebeAbe ----- EndoMatsui--------------------OkuboHonda JNT under Zaccheroni KawashimaUchida - Yoshida - Konno - NagatomoHasebe - Endo Okazaki ------Honda------KagawaMaeda I will just write bellow, my own opinion regarding the topic, so please don't bash me for it, you are entitled to your own. In order to compare we should check some cruical points: 1) System 2) Players 3) Substitutes 4) Players in the system 5) Overall game play and tactical approach Now as mentioned anything I write is purely subjective and the way I see it and naturally only from what I can see since I wasn't exactly mr. Okada or Zaccheroni or their assistant or a part of the team to know more about it. 1) SYSTEM The system under Okada was 4-1-2-2-1 or also can be described as 4-3-3 . The system under Zaccheroni is 4-2-3-1 The systems themselves are quite different. Although the only real change is that instead of DMC you employ an AMC. However more about that later... 2) PLAYERS There are in total 5 players in the starting 11 who have stayed the same under Zaccheroni. Those are - Kawashima - Nagatomo - Hasebe - Endo - Honda Now before judging on that, we need to review the reasons for that. a) Reason A would probably be the age - Tulio Tanaka and Nakazawa retired from the JNT duty. Komano is still around but not used as a first team member. Okubo has fallen out of favor partially probably because of the AGE as well as ABE. Same could be said about Matsui who also had other more football related problems like playing in a good team and so on. But there you can see that Zaccheroni was more or less forced to switch the generation for the next cycle because of the age all of those 6 players are past their 30s and therefor need to play extremely well to be considered and naturally be better then what their country has to offer. We could say the only guy in the JNT who has managed to impress Zac to such level is Endo. And the only guy who next to him stayed in this team is Komano. Substitutes excluded naturally we will talk about them later. b) Reason B for a change is the fact that country kind of gets some new players, some new talent which can be of higher quality than those before them and so naturally they are replaced and naturally the previous manager could not have used those who have not yet made a mark in a football world. We have cases of those as well. In fact the entire JNT 2013 is stacked with those. - Shinji Kagawa 24 - Maya Yoshida 24 - Uchida 25 They were all really young when coach Okada was in charge... so this new generation has something to do with changes as well. So one could see, how it is not Zaccheroni's mastermind changing the line up, but also the AGE factor and NEW TALENT... but that talent did he picked brilliantly? Well idk, when we check on those players. Uchida joined Schalke right after the WC. Kagawa also made his trip to Dortmund where he succeeded big time... Yoshida was making a name for himself in Netherlands before. While Okada could not see yet what he would do in VVV. Zac on the other hand already had that chance... So yes you could honestly ask yourself. Did Zac picked those 3? Or did foreign scouts, foreign coaches and the local press picked them for him. Because like it or not they were all starting to make a name for themselves and were there right in front of Zac as he was making his JNT team. Instead of talking about the other players here... I will talk about them under the point 3. 3) SUBSTITUTES Substitutes are not only an important part of the current team, but also some kind of guidance and mirror of future. So when you look at the bench, you should be able to see some possible future candidates for the national team. Either replacement or some rising possible future stars. So let us check without further ado what Okada had on his bench Substitutes under Okada: Uchida(Kashima) Shinji Okazaki (Shimizu) Keiji Tamada (Nagoya) Shunsuke Nakamura (YFM) Kisho Yano (Albirex) Daiki Iwamasa (Kashima) Kengo Nakamura (Kawasaki Frontale) Yasuyuki Konno (FC Tokyo) Takayuki Morimoto (Catania) Junichi Inamoto (Kawasaki) GK - Narazaki and Kawaguchi If we look closely we can see that Okada has picked some players who were either already "famous" - like Inamoto or Nakamura and Narazaki. As well as one of the rare players who play abroad. However... he also picked some names who were yet to make a name for themselves and show promise and what is important were still playing in the J-League at the time. - Uchida, Okazaki as well as those he saw as good enough Iwamasa, Yano, Tamada, Konno But as we see 3 of those are today used in first team of Alberto Zaccheroni. All the rest are dropped from JNT. Partially because of age, partially because they are not good enough. Two of them went to Europe later on - so were in a way a given to Zaccheroni. 1 Konno... he decided to keep himself. So what has Zac on his bench? - Komano (Jubilo) - Kurihara (YFM) - K Nakamura (Kawasaki) - G. Sakai (Stuttgart) - H. Sakai (Hannover) - Inoha (Jubilo) - Hosogai (Hertha) - Takahashi (FC Tokyo) - Inui (Eintracht) - Kiyotake (Nurnberg) - Haveenar (Vitesse) So Kurihara and Nakamura are old guard used by Okada... others are new... However many of them have made it there due to them making a mark and leaving to Europe to "succeed" - Both Sakais, Kiyotake, Inui, Havenaar, Hosogai... Only Kurihara, Inoha and Takahashi are the ones he picked "himself" from the J-League. But if we are a bit mean, we can also say, that well thats because there are no players in their positions in Europe anyway...so he had to pick someone from J-League heh Would others picked differently? Perhaps but most likely not... I mean apart from those 3 many of the rest are a given and apart from the aging Nakamura no one is really telling him to pick someone else...Or are we? Well wast majority does see a problem with the striker. Where Haveenar and J-League option Maeda are not their favorites... But I am moving away from the topic let us move on 4) PLAYERS IN THE SYSTEM I would lie here, if I would say I have known JNT players in Okada's system 10% as much as I know the current ones in Zaccheorni's. However there are some interesting things to be seen with plain eyes. a) The back 4 is different. Yes Nagatomo and Uchida kind of work similar to Komano and Nagatomo but the central two... there is a difference there. With Tulio and Nakazawa Okada was playing two typical tall and hard defenders. Air supremacy and hard tackling style. But with Konno and Yoshida. Zaccheroni is in favour of a mix. However we need to add that Konno was already on the substitute bench of Okada so we cant really claim that idea was originally Zac's. b) The midfield is due to a different system all different. Zac plays with two "dmc" type of players... although Endo is a playmaker... and Honda will drop in and help. Okada used 3 in the midfield so no additional help was needed. Also with Abe and Endo he kind of had 2 "playmaker" types which Zac replaces with Honda dropping deep. c) attackin midfielders/wingers Now this one is actually interesting. Zaccheroni plays mostly with Okazaki on AMR and Kagawa on AML. Kagawa is not a typical winger rather a supporting striker/playmaker And Okazaki is more of an inner forward - thus we can say there are no wingers in his system partially do to the players he has... partially do to the system he plays. Now the interesting part here is. That before Zac Okada actually played something really similar with Okubo (the striker) playing kind of the inner striker role of Okazaki today and Matsui simply was not technically gifted as Kagawa... so one could see the similarities there. And to add to that Okada already had Okazaki on the bench... d) Strikers role Well here we see something different. Honda was the main go to guy Okada used or he would simply put Okubo there and Switch with Honda. Now Zac plays a more typical striker stuff however he did try it out with Honda as well when JNT lost 4:0 to Brazil one does wonder... will he try it again some day... 5) Overall game play and tactical approach What to say here. Zac plays a lot more possession type of game then Okada. Who was more counter-attack minded guy. But we can still see it when Japan plays really strong teams. Also I will add that it was Okada who was the mastermind behind Honda as ST and Zaccheroni with 3-4-3 stuff he has in his sleeves and uses when he sees fit. So what is the conclusion. Well Okada did have a lot harder job picking the team, then mr. Zaccheroni. Players werent trashing Europe... Nagatomo... Uchida and others... probably Japan has to thank him for some of those players and the way they progressed. Picking players out from J-League especially so young is a lot harder then just saying ok. So this lad plays for Stuttgart and is a regular good enough I will call him up. And I admit I hold it against Zac that he would call up the likes of Takahashi and let him rot on the bench. But is Zaccheroni living of Okada's hard work? No Okada had some of the things set up as well but he did have a tougher time picking the team and so on... It is natural. You take what is good and add a bit of your own. If a lot of it is bad you change a lot. If a lot of it is good, you keep a lot. Zaccheroni would have been a fool to throw it all away... In football you need luck as well as talented players to make things happen... but it is not all about that. Was Zaccheroni's qualification for WC 2014 and winning Asian Championship a "fluke" something which was more or less given by the team that was given to him... players that JNT now has and the amount of talent? Or is it all combined and he is the man who will at the right time find those missing pieces. IMO we will see the answer to that in the following months. I will not say When WC 2014 comes. I will say... that we will see it by the future actions he takes and matches JNT plays. He has achieved his primary goal he was paid to achieve. Now as he said himself is time to "AMAZE" Amaze us Zac and find those missing pieces.
You guys are now getting greedy. I would die for Zac right now. South Korea has a muppet for a manager. No one can argue that South Korea does not have quality players...its the manager that can make or break a team. At least Zac is not breaking your team. Kudos on qualifying first. Hope Korea is right behind you.
I don't know who told you that, but it is false. Tulio himself said that he is still aiming for it. I even reported Zac's comment on him on a match in the NT thread time ago . It's just a manager choice. Blue-San, I don't want to sound annoying but how can you not notice the obvious contradiction in the fact that Endo and Kengo are born in 1980 (and you guys keep underlining it ) ? And you think Abe and Okubo are out... for the age? He introduced a new forward, Maeda, that is going to be 32 this year and you guys think it has to do with only with age. Well... okay then! I don't even... Blue-San, Yoshida signed for VVV in 2010, but played his first match for VVV on the 2010/11 season in october 2010. I seem to remember he went under surgery too or something like that. Otherwise you would've seen him play with Honda. He was called up and immediately made a starter for the damn Asian Cup in january 2011. Do you really believe it's thanks to his "impressive performances" in 3 months in the netherlands reported by some scout that he became a starter. God. Damn. Talk about denying facts no matter what it takes... At least get your information right guys because it comes a point where discussing becomes infuriating and, especially, wasteful. Also... I'm not sure why you keep talking about Kagawa and Uchida while I didn't even mentioned them... obviously they would have been chosen by any competent coach?!? Sure, but also you may want to consider that Okazaki is a starter now despite doing absolutely nothing in Stuttgart this year. But he did well for the JNT. Except that he picked Kiyo while he was in the JLeague, and Lee, and both Sakais too but nevermind. And Hosogai didn't play in Europe during the Asian Cup... Not at all, see above post. (this is not counting the other JLeague players like Maeda and Konno too, of course) Hahaha oh wow! And I thought Yasuda kept playing for years at Vitesse just after the asian cup, despite Zac not giving a damn, how silly of me see above posts. Today we say that they are a given... because they were the right choice. I don't know how you can write this things and pretend to be taken seriously (on this). He could've picked anyone but since he made some benches with Okada... good lord. Let me say that I respect your opinion on the rest. But get the informations correctly before making assumptions.
just to comment about the age... Just one of the reasons. Far from the only one. I did write it under point A because it was like reason 1... not the only one The main one naturally being the ability. It is however true that while in a 20 year old guy someone can also see potential and future, a 30+ old player simply needs to be better then the rest to play, sometimes a lot better or exactly what the coach is looking for About Yoshida, I simply meant that Zaccheroni chose a player who was going to Netherlands and later on made a name there so naturally he was a "given" I don't claim that Zac called him up because he was tearing up Eredivisie but because he was starting to make a name for himself - > aka being the only Japan central defender abroad in one of the "bigger leagues" and young to boot About the rest of Europeans Dax... I simply meant why they are in the team now. Not when he picked/tried them. Read my post as a neutral opinion and just in the end some of subjective stuff. I am sorry if parts of my post are seen differently from what I intended them to be I could go and start sharing my view on it and challenge yours about it. Like ok he picked Kiyotake but when? After he has been linked with Europe already and so on... Or that he tried other players as well but they didnt ended up in Europe and trash Europe to be able to cemment their place in a starting line up Or that he called up Yuki Otsu - > Europe, or Miyaichi Europe... But all of those would be hunting witches, just as it is you tearing my post sentence after sentence mate. I meant what I wrote in a right way...but perhaps you read it in a different tone and saw things differently. When I say he picked Kiyotake and that he was a given - Europe and all => I do not mean that he picked him because he was already in Europe but that 95% of sane coaches would probably picked Kiyo by now since well with each passing day he is making a bigger name for himself
I will comment on this though, since you laughed at it: I mentioned Kurihara, Takahashi and Inoha = Central defenders and a MC guy. Yasuda is a side back... Seriously Dax imo you take these posts a bit too negatively and fail to see them for what they are. NO Zac trashing but simple opinion which tries to be as objective as it can be
Yes... but what I meant was referred to this mental idea: "But if we are a bit mean, we can also say, that well thats because there are no players in their positions in Europe anyway...so he had to pick someone from J-League heh ". While Yasuda was at Vitesse (he was doing pretty well too) he still called up other sidebacks. Heck, even Komano. Btw: Takayuki Seto is also a DM, he has been checked but not considered, so far. Not sure if it's more clear now? That's the problem I'm finding in these posts: they are not all objective, and I pointed you out where they are not and why. There are some things which are simply not true but you selected - probably not on purpose - only certain informations. (well, you at least don't attempt stupid stuff like BUT IT WAS IT HARA INSTEAD? ) Yes, but let's be honest for a moment. Please. Really. 1) Yoshida was 22 years old in january 2011. And he was made a starter in the Asian Cup without ever playing a match in the JNT. (He actually played in a test match in 2010 against Yemen before were many new players were tested... but that counts as much as Zac's iceland match with Kubo called up lol) 2) He could have failed in Europe. Like many other players have. And at times, he did, at VVV. Now, to say he was a given... I'm sure you'd rethink that, no? But that's important to point. That deletes the misconception that players were chosen after they're in Europe. They're not. Of course if Usami scored 20 goals he would have been chosen now, but notice how he did not call him up almost never - ever preferring JLeague players like Haraguchi - and sadly indeed he "failed".
I don't have anything to say about the rest but cut the crap about Yoshida. He's been monitored by the JFA for a long time, Zach didn't discover a gem thanks to his amazing scouting skills.
a small unrelated note... apparently Honda's grandpa died in may. Apparently he confessed to a FIFA journo that that's the reason for his "pray" while celebrating his goal (his granpa is reported only on Sponichi though) FIFA.com: After you scored that penalty kick, you prayed for something?Well, I had some personal emotion then… But apart from my personal feeling, that goal took Japan to the World Cup, and I’m satisfied with that. As long as you don't feel stupid, hey, keep on going! It must have been the JFA who sent him on the pitch, then. Oh, and it must have been them too that told him the tactics!
Yoshida played the Olympics in the 2008 and was a stand-out defender in the J.League. It was only a matter of time. You're not dumb enough to think this was Zac's work. Yes he pens the name on the list. But the work was done long ago. but maybe he was impressed by his rehabbing skills in Holland.