2011/12 Tadanari Lee @ Southampton F.C. (ENG) Thread [R]

If they can afford to introduce Lee slowly I don't think this will harm his performance. It's much better like this than the other way around in the long run.

Most important with this move is that Adkins was the one who wanted him, not the board or any other party, so I'd be patient.

 

Me too! No one - except possibly Nigel Adkins - wants Lee to succeed at Southampton more than I do. I agree that he has the ability and attitude to excel in the Championship, but it's true that players who move to a very different footballing environment don't always realise their potential.

But in this case I definitely think we should be positive and patient. I can't see any reason why Adkins would have brought Lee in if he didn't want to play him, and there has been nothing but praise for him from the staff at St Marys. He can't have been at peak fitness (still probably fitter than most of the rest of the team!) when he arrived at the end of January, and he obviously will need time to fit in with the way the team plays. Yet in the four games since he arrived he started in one, and was given two half-hours at the end of the other two. Doesn't sound unreasonable to me. I wonder whether you saw "highlights" of the match he missed at Birmingham? It should never have been played. The pitch was frozen, and the light snowfall had become a blizzard by the time the match finished. The fact that the two highest scoring teams in the league played out a scoreless draw, with only a couple of real chances created in the entire bleak 90 minutes, about sums it up. A good game for Lee to show what he can do? Perhaps. Also a perfect opportunity to try too hard and fracture a leg.

I need to make it clear here that I live in Japan, so I stand to be corrected by others who are nearer the action, but what Adkins is doing now is to patiently build a squad capable of competing in the Premiership. Fingers crossed that Lee is a part of those plans. Most Saints fans would admit that there are several players currently in the squad who are not. I think many fans were astonished by the success of the team last year. The downturn over the past couple of months has been the result not only of other teams raising their game against Southampton, but also of the natural accumulation of injuries and suspensions to key players. Although some of those players are now returning, I think the team will continue to struggle through February, until the weather and the pitches improve. Blizzards and mud-baths are not conducive to the kind of quick-passing possession game that Adkins likes to play. He also is very aware of the importance of having a squad in which he can rotate players - he is stressing before today's game that they face 17 games in 11 weeks, and he expects all of the first-team squad to be involved. It would be great if Lee is at least on the bench this weekend, but if he isn't I'd still expect to see him gradually given more playing time as he settles in.

I will try to keep the length of these postings down in future Sorry...

 

Lee came on for the last few minutes against Burnley, they won 2-0.

 

Not a good day for Lee. Only two minutes on the field at the end, and both Sharp and Connolly preferred to him as partners for Lambert up front. SFC won comfortably, so Adkins might not be inspired to change the line-up for the next game on Tuesday.

 

Adkins started the same players last night in the top-of-the-table clash at West Ham. Lee didn't get off the bench in a 1-1 draw. Sharp and Lambert continue as the strike force, with Puncheon and Connolly coming off the bench to supplement them. Must be disappointing for Lee, but Southampton are still second, and if the manager is happy with picking up draws away, then I guess he isn't going to change the team around.

 

He should've gone to the Bundesliga or Italy (both of which he turned down offers from). This is turning out to be a joke of a move, he's on the bench of team that he's too good for, all cause the english are much much more skeptical of Japanese players than elsewhere in europe.

Very pessimistic about this as you can see. But lets face it....it's England ofcourse it's tending to go this way.

 

Our players should avoid England at any cost.

 

As Owen-ZA says, its been 4-5 games and he's started 1 and got 30 mins in two of the others, so there is no reason to be negative at this stage.

He's coming to a completely new environment and culture, to a club that has doing really well this year and are on their way to promotion, so the coach actually has no reason at all to make any changes to his team and nobody should expect otherwise.

You can't expect Lee to be an regular starter at this stage either, cause no matter how many goals he's scored in Japan ( which by the way, isn't THAT many if we look at his goals vs games ratio) he still doesnt have a name in England, and needs like most other players prove that he's good enough. I find it hard to see him getting that much more playing time at a bottom-half Bundesliga-side actually, as he still has to get accustomed to his team's playing style, teammates etc. Even a famous player like Shinji Ono when he went to Bochum started the first 3-4 games on the bench if I recall correctly.

If its true that the staff are really happy with his contributions in training and such so far, then surely he will be given more chances, and then if he starts performing in matches as well he will become a regular.

 

An example.


Our player ( a player from my country. 19 years old Haris Vučkič just joined Cardiff (3rd place team in Championship) on loan from Newcastle. He immediately started his first game against Liecester and played for 77 minutes, before being replaced. He played an ok first game, they instantly saw his potential.
His second game was just yesterday against Peterborough United and again he was substituted late in 77th minute. But this time he scored a lovely goal in 40th minute and also created 100% chance for his teammate, and gave an assist from the corner for the second goal. Overall he played great.

So yes while you can go about it slowly and surely.You can also give a talented player who you believe will make a difference a lot more chances and playing time and therefor invest more hope and give him the option to actually do something with the time on the field to show to everyone he is one class above the rest.

So I don't know what is it for Lee but Vuckic is already getting playing time and basically being an important part of the team and he is just 19 and only come to Cardiff half a month ago.

http://www.footreview.net/index.php/home/viewvideo/2037/championship/cardiff-3-1-peterborough


here above is his goal and play
Peterborough United

 

But Vuckic's situation is a bit different as he is rated as one of the biggest talents in Europe and also, he comes from an EPL-club ( like Miyaichi, who as it looks now atleast will be used quite much already from the beginning of) so they probably know more about him. And didn't he had trials at other top clubs as well before signing for Newcastle? So Vuckic probably had a bigger name than Lee, plus its alot easier for a fellow European to gel into a British team automatically than a player from a different continent ( South America, Asia etc).

Lee is not exactly a talent anymore ( he's 26), and he averaged around 1 goal pr 3rd match for Sanfrecce which is good, but I'm not really sure he is one class above everyone else at So'ton like it seems other thinks.

 

Good to see people not overreacting.

 

I reckon Lee will get his chances slowly but surely, Adkins seemed determined to sign him.

I remember a while ago when a lot of people (Myself included) thought Hosogai made the wrong move to Augsburg after he was on the bench in his first few games. But he didn't waste it when he got the opportunities. Also many were really worried about Uchida when he first began at Schalke after two or three matches benched, but he went on to have an awesome season.

 

IF any of you are in the UK?

http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10280~2611922,00.html?utm_source=Twitter

 

We (Southampton) are going to be pushing hard for promotion, there will be plenty of opportunity for Lee to play, don't worry.

 

Wish I could still there, I could get him to sign my 2011 Sanfrecce shirt

 

Hey, I'm an optimist! I expect to see Lee playing for Southampton in the Premiership next season, and/or the season after that. I was just saying that I didn't think Adkins would change the team around before West Ham - and he didn't.
Sorry to say I know nothing about Vučkič and not a lot about Cardiff, but perhaps one reason why Lee is taking longer to get substantial playing time is the length of the queue. Lambert and Sharp are both averaging a Championship goal every two games so far this season, while Guly has one in three and Lallana near that. Attacking and scoring goals is not a problem right now. I'm sure Lee will get called on increasingly, though.

 

Who knows............he could do a similar thing as Hosogai did. However those instances aren't probable.

Also, because now Southampton are out of the cup, Lee doesn't have the chance to play those games to win his place. He'll be resigned to occasional sub minutes and will have to produce a lot in that time.

 

Indeed, who knows....I don't.

But you seem pretty sure that Lee is "too good for" this team (evidence?), and that he won't get a fair chance because "the english are much much more skeptical of Japanese players than elsewhere in europe" (evidence?).

My take on it is that Lee is a good enough player and Adkins a sensible enough manager for them to work something out. I can see why you have doubts, but why all this negativity?

 

1. You asking me for evidence makes the assumption that ability can be empirically measured with evidence. Remember in discussion of player quality it comes down to opinion based on firstly the opinion of J.League teams also JNTs of which he's done well against when playing. Silly question. Though we're already aware that their midfielders don't possess the quality to be hitting his runs (well described by Saints fans on a forum i gandered at).

2. Every single previous Japanese player in england is the 'evidence' as you ask. As compared to relative success of Japanese players in other european leagues. It is an anomaly that can be concluded by either a different attitude from english football, or can be concluded by saying the EPL is of infinitely higher quality than any other european league Japanese have done adequately in (including UCL standard). Even Yuki Abe had a difficult time, only months after performances in the World cup (and a friendly vs. England) that showed a much higher quality of play than the Championship as a DM. I'm not saying that as a generalisation saying only English can be this conservative, but it takes an outstanding few players to break a culture through in any environment (eg Ono in Holland, Kagawa/Hasebe in germany). I've been surprised to see that a fair proportion of english fans consider J.League on par with League 1 which is frankly a hilarious underestimation.
However england is a peculiar case because there is a lower diversity of players from around the world compared to the Bundesliga.

3. A part of me wants him to be at a different country because firstly what I describe above about why I'm pessimistic of his chances of actually getting playing time (let me again point out I hope I'm wrong). And secondly the tactical quality of english football is quite naive and primitive compared to Italy/Germany and also some others (however those are of noticeably lower playing quality), the exception is the UCL teams and maybe 4 outside that (eg Swansea).

I can't guarantee that Lee won't make it, as I said, who knows he may pull a Hosogai. But there are plenty of valid reasons to be pessimistic of this as compared to if he went to a different league.

 

Aki, a player can have enormous success in one league, and then be a total flop in another due to different playing style and environment. That has nothing to do with the overall quality of the league. You say that comparing J.League to Championship is an hilarious comparasion, but its two completely different leagues and styles of football u are comparing. J.League is arguably a lot better when it comes to technical skills (atleast thats the general view), while Championship is miles ahead of J.League when it comes to the physical part of the play, and most likely ahead when it comes to defensive organization as well (which frankly some J-teams struggle alot with). And we still havent mentioned the overall low quality of Japanese goalkeepers.

When a player like John Carew, who are still more or less in his prime, is struggling with playtime in Championship, it tells me that the level can't be that bad. I havent watched any Championship football for several years, so I can't really say how the level is today, and if I'm not mistaken you don't watch that much J.League either, so I think u are basing ur statements on the wrong things.

Its true that Tadanari Lee did well against solid opponents like South Korea for the Japan NT, but that doesn't necessarily means he will do the same against Championship defenders. That is the same case with Yuki Abe, which u mentioned. Another more extreme case from a few years back is Kazuyuki Toda. Not at all a talented player ( just look at where he is now), but he had some qualities that made him important for the Japan NT in 2002, but when he tried his luck at Tottenham in EPL he was a complete fiasco, and likewise for some bottom-club teams in Eredivisie. When he returned to Japan his career kept getting worse, but the point is being good one place ( in Toda's case for the Japan NT and to some degree S-Pulse back in 2001) doesnt mean u will have success anywhere else.

The REALLY gifted players like Kagawa, Honda, Inui and Nagatomo usually manages to make the adaptation required to succeed in a different environment, but then we can see a player like Ienaga, and how he struggled in Spain ( despite someone labelling him as lazy at times he's still one of the most gifted Japanese players of his generation imho). But I would never put a player like Lee in the same category as those.

No Japanese players have experienced success in what is widely regarded as the two best leagues in the world, and I don't know, but there might still be a reason for that. Wrong players trying their luck in the wrong clubs of course also play a role, but that's not likely to be the only reason.

As someone said the So'ton strikers are each averaging a goal pr 2 games, and looking at Lee's stats from earlier there is no reason to believe he will do better than that, atleast not at this stage when he is still trying to get accustomed to the team etc.

So I think it would be better to try and look at things with a bit more positive attitude at times, =) And also look at the situations regarding a lot of these Japanese players from the club's point of view, and not only from the Japanese player's point of view.

 

Not trying to nitpick NB, but Aki mentioned some fans comparing the J League to League 1, not the Championship. This would mean Southampton comparing themselves to Grampus, Sanfrecce being barely a match for Leyton Orient, and Urawa being outmatched by Yeovil Town.

Of course this is ludicrous, but hopefully there aren't a significant number of English fans stupid enough to believe that Gamba, who went toe-to-toe with Man Utd a couple of years ago, could be overcome by Huddersfield Town. A more recent comparison would be believing that Brighton & Hove Albion could overcome the CONCACAF Champions League winners since this is what Reysol did.

I do think it's far too early to push the panic button. Chunson is recently arrived in England and as anyone who has taught in Japan will know, 7+ years of English education in Japanese schools is not going to overcome the language barrier immediately. I just hope he can settle quickly so he can give himself a chance to prove his ability.

 

Haha sorry man but Carew was on his prime ten years ago, he's more or less finished now.

 

Exactly. So your opinion is that Lee is too good for Southampton, and Adkins's opinion is that he is a useful addition to the squad. I think I get that.

Ah yes. Those will be the same fans who consider J.League on par with League 1. So your opinion is that the Southampton midfield is not good enough. Adkins's opinion is that it will take more than three weeks for a player who has never before played outside Japan to adapt to the naive and primitive football played in the Championship. I think I get that, too.

So you think that Lee will fail at Southampton because of English skepticism. Adkins thinks that Lee is a talented player who will do well in England. I can't spot the skepticism there... (And I'm sorry to be dumb, but could you tell me a few of the players who have failed in England and then gone on to wild success elsewhere?)

I guess you have done your research on that and have the figures, so even though I don't get your point I will accept what you say. And it is true that Southampton previously had no African or Asian players in their squad. Only Brazilian, Polish, Dutch, French, Portuguese... But that is one reason why I am pleased to see Lee there. If Asian players never try to play in England, how are biased stereotypes ever going to be eradicated?

I can't understand why you would want to! The only people who should be feeling miserable are Sanfrecce fans. I just want to encourage Lee to be positive and patient and to earn the respect of English fans.

 

1. Nakata played in EPL, considering his career he did experience success elsewhere mainly Italy.
2. Most Japanese players to go to England I'm sure were bought by managers who thought they could add something, doesn't mean there isn't skepticism of quality. Lee came pretty cheap for them (reportedly 500k or free), low risk for club.
3. Examples like Lee in Southampton in the championship possibly succeeding isn't going to change opinions. It'll take a Park Ji Sung style effort in the EPL (or a Takahara in Germany or Ono in Holland). Otherwise we would be saying that Yuki Abe's efforts made a huge dent into that stereotype. Scoring a few goals in the Championship won't really change that.

4. I don't think you understand me, i don't want him to fail. I just think there's a relatively high chance of him failing in England, compared than for example Gotoku Sakai in the Bundesliga (higher league/team than Championship, worse player).

Taking a few weeks to adapt to a league is done by playing.....not done by staying on the bench behind Connolly. And it's been established that he can deal with the physicality by the sounds of it.

 

I'm sorry, but this is getting silly. I'm interested to see how Lee gets on in England. I'm not especially interested in all the rest of this. Could we revisit this in May when there should actually be something meaningful to say? Thanks.