Re: Official 2011 Japanese NT Thread [R] Japan has the most A-team players out of all the teams playing this cup, only missing Kagawa of the key players. Peru is missing several key players, like Guerrero, Vargas, Pizarro and Guizasola. But the Czechs are playing with half a B-team. No Rosický, no Plašil, no Baroš, no Holek, no Pudil, no Polák. Their midfield only has one experienced player, Hübschman, while the others are players that have never before been capped.
Re: Official 2011 Japanese NT Thread [R] thanks for that link. However since the game is long over, I'm looking for a recorded video of it. Hopefully someone did and upload it somewhere online, although I rarely sees full recorded matches online... btw, does that site require you to join/sign up to watch? back to the match, I forgot to ask, did they change formation/strategy anytime during the game or did Zac stick to the 3-4-3? I know it's the norm for Coaches to bring players in and mold them into the type of players that they want. Manager expect players to live up to their expectations. I read that the 3-4-3 is very unusual in the world of football and for Japan, it's near unthinkable since they had no experience with it. Wouldn't be better for Zac to use a formation that Japan players are used to? To bring the best out of them or utilize their abilities and skills. I know in the long run, he's helping to improve their abilities and right now he wants to try something new. But Zaccheroni should think of us fans, we don't want to see a bad performance from Japan, especially after all that happens. There are only two games in this Kirin Cup and another scheduled match against South Korea. The first against Peru is already a bust, some good performances from select players, but overall disappointing. Definitely want to see improvements in the next game against Czech Republic and hopefully creating more attacking chances, then finishing it. also strengthen the back line.
Re: Official 2011 Japanese NT Thread [R] It actually was a recording of the full match, but it looks like it got taken down due to copyright issues.
Re: Official 2011 Japanese NT Thread [R] And I'll go with my few cents here. First half was better IMO, in the second I was like I couldn't understand where one player should stand or pass. Full improvisation with 'few' hints for what one should do on paper. It just looked like mess to me. One game and a showcase of... what? What Japanese team's trying to learn in coming two years? I sensed a little horror on the pitch. That looked like unprepared look on 'what we're capable of' for now. In the first half I was really disappointed with Yasuda's performance. Almost no left side there. On the other hand Sekiguchi looked very confident and was best on pitch for me. Getting back defending, he had something to offer on offensive side. About defenders - I won't tell anything but I liked Nishi's performance. He looked pretty confident there and wasn't afraid of his choices. For me that's a big plus for him as I wasn't expecting that from him. Second half looked more messy, I didn't know what they were trying there. Okazaki when combined with Honda is perfect linking there. They have probably same sense of what should be and what shouldn't be done on the pitch. Okazaki gets more confident when he's playing with Keisuke. Lee once again looked like he should grab Maeda's place in starting eleven as he has better 'chemistry' (for combinational football) with the team than Ryoichi. Moriwaki rocked right wing (would Uchida do better? I don't think so...). Not to mention great Kawashima (as always though). But it still looked like a mess, with individual of players like Honda creative skills. This game wasn't convincing. I'm looking forward to next game but another friendly just before start of WC qualifacation to assume what this group is capable of (I wish I could that only after what? Few days of training together of bunch trying to find their way of play?). Without that I'm lost. I won;t say anything about formation because players were tried in 'sink or swim' situation. I've only seen a sketch of it (too many for one game). Maybe I'll get a better grasp of it after next game. (I really haven't been under anuthing other than 4 defenders to tell the truth so I probably won't ever say anything bad about defensive side ATM). EDIT: Ow, I forgot about Hasebe! Just solid throught the game. But that's in positive way! It feels like he nerver gets lower than his usual, high level for NT and in some tough moments he steps up. I really like the way he moves around and his decissions.
Re: Official 2011 Japanese NT Thread [R] I don't understand why people like you have to underestimate Peru like that when you guys have only been able to beat us ONCE out of i believe 3 or 4 matches. Just because we had a horrible world cup qualifier doesn't mean we are shi.t..just look at Chile they were last in the South American qualifier for Germany 2006 and SECOND for South Africa 2010. I believe we are on that path ..or at least showing the world little by little that we are one to be respected ...not to mention that we have Farfan, Vargas and Pizarro ..three players any country in the world would kill to have on their starting 11
Re: Official 2011 Japanese NT Thread [R] Yeah but Vargas and Pizarro didn't even play and whatever Peru's level is at best 11, you don't have the talent pool depth of the big CONMEBOL boys. You fielded an understrength side against us and we still looked like crap, that's why people are upset. Also, be realistic, Peru's last golden age was 30 years ago or something (and you had some awesome guys then) and you've been down in the dregs a long time. It would be great to see you guys rise up but you can't expect respect that your team hasn't really earned recently.
Re: Official 2011 Japanese NT Thread [R] This entire thread makes me LOL Good lord people, look at the selection! Zaccheroni has been coach for less than a year. He had to play the previous coach's formation at the Asian Cup if he wanted to win, so he did. He succeeded. End of story. Now is the FIRST chance to call his own squad with his own formation and philosophy. Yes thats right -his FIRST chance. You cant call that J.League vs Overseas All stars exhibition a real match. FFS - KAZU was in the lineup (and even scored)! Need I say more? So how do people react to the very first match that this coach has been able to coach on his own, with no preconceptions? They start pulling their hair out and talking about what a "mess" it was. Do any of you numbskulls even remember Osim's first NT match? (much less Zicos or Troussiers)? Based on some of the comments above, I get the sense that some of you were still learning to read back then. I mean . . . seriously. Lets look at some of the things people are saying: " Inoha...why is he on the wing?" Well, first of all, he wasnt. OK technically speaking there were about 11 minutes and 30 seconds when Japan switched from 3-4-3 to 4-2-3-1 when he was on the wing, but the rest of the time he was a side back in a 3-man line. So why was he on the wing when they DID make the switch? HELLL - LO! It just might be because he is one of just 4 or 5 players in all of Japan who have proven themselves capable of playing either side back in a 3- or fullback in a 4-man line. Nagatomo cant. Uchida cant. Komano cant. Yasuda sure as hell cant. Hmm lets see . . . which other players in Japan are capable of doing the same thing. Yasuyuki Konno. Oh hey, come to think of it, he was in the lineup too. Yuzo Kurihara. Oh hey, come to think of it . . . . Ryota Moriwaki. Gee . . . what a coincidence Tomoaki Makino. Hey, I think Im starting to see a pattern here . . . (I wont even bother to mention the fact that in two career appearances at r.wing -totalling about 25 minutes in all- Inoha has scored one goal. That's approximately 1700% as productive as Nagatomo, 3600% as productive as Uchida and infinity% more productive than Yasuda or Komano. But I wont bother to mention that... ) You know, now that I think of it, most of the forwards called to this team are guys who tend to run the wing, rather than standard 2-top or 1-top strikers. Now why do you suppose that might be? Im going to go WAAAAAAAAAAAYYYY out on a linb here, and make a really speculative and totally "out of left field" suggestion here, but what if . . . . I mean, just what IF . . . Zack decided that for his first Kirin Cup international as the coach of Japan in which he actually was able to choose his team and strategy without preconditions, he decided "Oh what the heck, maybe I should try calling up a team that fits into the 3-4-3 strategy that Ive used for my entire coaching career and have repeatedly indicated that I prefer to use, when possible. You know . . . just to see what happens . . . OK. I didnt think the result was all that impressive either. But seriously - for a first attempt, with a VERY preliminary squad, and one that didnt even include most of the first-team players (at least not til after half time), played on a wet pitch with only two days preparation time, Id have to admit it wasnt half bad. . . Im not going to go on with some of the other ridiculous things people have said. Ill just point out one thing: Zack Japan: 10 internationals (including a regional title tournament)/zero losses. If you can name five other coaches in all of international football coaching history who accomplished a similar record, then youre qualified to criticize. If you cant, perhaps you should just admit that you arent qualified to be passing any judgement.
Re: Official 2011 Japanese NT Thread [R] Agreed. I think 3-4-3 may be able to work but it will take time. I've wondered about how to switch from Yasuda to Nishi (or in the starting XI, Naga to Ucchi) or the other way with a 3-4-3. Because typically 3-4-3 teams don't do this switch across the backline terribly fast, so they have to commit to one side. I had one idea though. If we take the starting lineup from last night: Okazaki---Maeda---Sekiguchi Yasuda---Hasebe---Endo---Nishi Inoha---Konno---Kurihara Kawashima If the team is building from the back, instead of going across Inoha, Konno, Kurihara THEN to the side back; Why not push Konno a few metres forward into volante when building right from CB. Just to allow flexibility when switching sides. So for a few seconds (20 at the most), the team is actually like Okada's 4-1-2-3. Okazaki---Maeda---Sekiguchi Endo---Hasebe Yasuda------Konno------Nichi Inoha---Kurihara Kawashima Allows the team to switch like a 4-back formation but by just moving Konno up a few metres for a few seconds. I think this would also be a clever tactical possibility to go straight from 3-4-3 to 4-1-2-3 very easily and Konno can play both roles. Again I'm not knocking the idea of a 3-4-3 or the game so much, just that I wonder if 3-4-3 might in future inhibit the ability of the JNT to switch quickly.
Re: Official 2011 Japanese NT Thread [R] Well, first of all, in a REAL 3-4-3 you dont switch at all in the back line. The three players are ALL defensive, and their respective responsibilities are: (1)(2) to cover the two strikers and (3) charge the ball to break the counterattack. The reason why few people in Europe use it anymore is that most teams have switched to a 1-top formation, so you no longer need two guys to cover the strikers. On the other hand in Asia most teams still play 4-4-2, so Im sure that was one consideration when they hired Zack. Second, Nagataomo and Uchida are in no way suitable to play in the back three. So forget that right now. Could you imagine Nagatomo trying to outjump someone like Huntelaar or Berbatov? Nagatomo will go straight in as the wide midfielder. Uchida MIGHT be able to do so as well, but Im thinking that someone more like Ienaga, Yoshiaki Ota or Yuki Otsu (or Honda, if you can convince him to play out wide) is going to get that spot. Third, in a proper 3-4-3 you dont need two sluggish, stationary holding midfielders. One at most, and if you really want an effective team youre better off going with even that one being an effective, two-way midfielder like Kengo, Moriwaki, Kiyotake, Fujimoto, Hosogai or Shibasaki. Interesting - isnt it - that three of those guys are in the squad... I think Endo's days are numbered, and though few people have commented on him, his relative lack of movement was one of the real problems in this match. He looks talented because he IS talented, but he doesnt fit into the concept of a 3-4-3. Hasebe was great, and he is the top candidate to be the two-way midfielder. The guy at the point of attack, however, has to be a much more mobile player - a Honda or a Kagawa, not a stand-still passer like Endo. Last but not least, I cant believe that anyone took the first-half lineup as indicative of what Zack intends to use as a regular starting formation. Most of those guys (esp. Nishi, Endo, Sekiguchi and Yasuda) were in the starting lineup for one reason and one reason only - to send a message to the players who WOULD have been first choice for the position: "You didnt make an effort to get released for the Copa America. If thats your attitude, dont assume that you can come back and just claim a spot when you feel like it." Personally I would have left them out of the squad completely, but I guess Zack figures that he doesnt have time for extended measures to "set an example." Anyway, the message got sent, and Im pretty sure the lineup against Czech will be very different.
Re: Official 2011 Japanese NT Thread [R] I understand that.. when I mean switch Ucchi to Naga, I'm talking from Naga---Endo---Hasebe---Ucchi Inoha---Konno---Kurihara KawashimaBecause they will occupy these positions in the 3-4-3. And that switch in the old back-4 was one common way Japan started their attack. Sorry I think I was misunderstood but I meant that with Ucchi & Naga playing the RM, LM role. But in the ol' 4-back formation we went for example: Uchida, to the Left CB to Nagatomo, and thats our switch in 2 passes across the back. But to go to attack the opposite wing now, it has to go: Uchida, to Kurihara, to Konno, to Inoha, to Nagatomo. (possibly done in 3 passes, still too slow imo) For the record I do know and agree that having a 3-back formation with both Ucchi & Naga in the back 3 would be a disaster, so i'm not going to try argue with you here cause frankly we're on the same page on that one. I believe Zac will try his best to get Ucchi to take the RM role before considering alternative players for that position.
Re: Official 2011 Japanese NT Thread [R] for everyone viewing pleasure. It's not a very exciting match, but it's still good to watch. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvdkgMQqpOM&NR=1"]YouTube - 2011 6/1 JAPAN VS PERU‏[/ame]
Re: Official 2011 Japanese NT Thread [R] No no I'd try these two guys with Masaki Fukai, that would be entertaining. 3-4-3 is a 5-4-1 in disguise, that's all ... And that's outdated as well. If we could defend with 4 players and still win, we don't need 5.
Re: Official 2011 Japanese NT Thread [R] Wow, interesting with all this talk about formation. First off, I'm new to soccer and have no idea about the intricacy of football, formation and strategies. but am in the learning process. I was first very confuse when I first started watching football. I thought defenders job were to defend the goal at all time. But when I read, it is the norm now for DF to move up and help the attacking group. the more games I saw the more I see this. in a normal 4-?-?-?, 1 or 2 defenders would help with the attack, so really only 2 or 3 DF at any time. in a 3-4-3, I hope the 3 DF would dedicate to defending, while the 4 MF can feed ball for the 3 CF/W to attack. I guess it's not that simple huh? From what I watches from their matches, Nagatomo and Uchida are more fit to play Midfield on the sides. They really know how to hug the lines on their sides of the field and zip straight deep into the opposition field. Everytime I watch nagatomo, I really think he would excel as a Winger. Nagatomo LMF, Uchida RMF, they could help the 3 CF up front, then the 2 other MF could play as Defensive Midfielder/ Sweeper in the Center, and help the 3 DF, spread across the line. O CF O CF O CF O LMF (AMF) O RMF ------------------------------------------ O CMF O O LB O (CB) O RB O GK
Re: Official 2011 Japanese NT Thread [R] Go to a website called Zonalmarking and read alll their archives, it will bring you right up to date. Also check out Jonathan Wilson's columns for the Guardian, or his book Inverting the Pyramid.
Re: Official 2011 Japanese NT Thread [R] I'm tempted to agree with Saku. I guess I should start drinking heavily. Let's recall though that formation does not equal tactics. The disposition of the back three and how they change shape, their license to combine in attack, is key. Matsu was describing a very rigid tactical interpretation of a three-back formation. But imagine a three-back with three, or at least two, Tulio-type players, and now you have something more like Total Football. Bielsa plays three at the back, that's all you need to know to realize that it does not HAVE to mean a sterile and defensive tactics. Zac is no Bielsa, unfortunately.
Re: Official 2011 Japanese NT Thread [R] Youd be a lot more accurate to say "a 3-4-3 is a 3-6-1 in disguise, thats all... And thats the formation Sanfrecce plays." And of course since everyone knows what a boring, dull, lifeless style of football Sanfrecce plays, you wouldnt even have to say anything more because everyone would already know what you meant. (not) This is the problem when you start talking formations. Ive been studying the subject for at least 30 years and Id still be the first to admit Im still just a beginner. Most people start talking about things like this and within 30 seconds they have guys like Zaccheroni rolling their eyes and scratching their heads in dismay & disbelief. While it is theoretically possible to play a defensive style and still call it a 3-4-3, the concept that Zaccheroni has for the formation is nothing of the sort. More like Sanfrecce's style of play, his objective is to win the ball at midfield and immediately get 4-6 players into the attack. The main reasons why it wasnt effective against Peru were: 1) Some of the newer guys really didnt know how to react and where to go when Japan won the ball (Nishi, Yasuda, Sekiguchi in particular) 2) The central midfield, which is supposed to break forward with the ball was standing motionless. Because lets face it, neither one of the guys playing there can run as fast as my 77-year-old mother 3) Peru -who none of you guys are willing to give credit for anything- actually played very good football, and closed down the outlet immediately. While all three of those points are reasons for concern, and obviously need to be corrected, none of them are at all surprising: 1) Learning a new system takes more than one match 2) Saying "Endo and Hasebe are slow" is like saying "Sepp Blatter is corrupt". 3) Peru arent some naiive joke team. They play Brazil and Argentina on a regular basis, and have to have some talent to avoid getting embarassed. If Japan is still struggling at this time next year, maybe you can start getting worried. But at the moment, people who freak out about a scoreless draw in one meaningless friendly are . . . . well . . . . the sort of people who would freak out about a scoreless draw in one meaningless friendly.
Re: Official 2011 Japanese NT Thread [R] Having played football for a long time, still playing it with veterans who almost made it to the pro level and were on academies, I don't pay too much attention to "tactics". Every coach in the world knows how to do a 442, a 433 or a 352. What really matters is what the players are asked to do and if the coach has a good enough eye to detect the full potential of his players and adjust the shape of his team according to it. Endo is slow without a doubt but Hasebe is a boss. I don't feel targeted by your talk at all since I was one the guys who didn't say too much because they were bothered by the global overreaction. But one thing I believe, and it's only personal, is that the credit you're giving Zaccheroni here, you wouldn't have given it to Okada even if he had the same record. So far, I must say that the best football Okada Japan was capable of was far more entertaining but heh, Roma wasn't built in a day.
Re: Official 2011 Japanese NT Thread [R] ....and if you look at the players he called up for those positions (Moriwaki, Inoha, Makino - even Kurihara and Konno, though not to the same extent) are guys known for their ability to charge forward into space. Lets look at the players he called up, and imagine what sort of lineup he might conceivably play after hes seen all of the players and knows a bit more which ones fit best in which positions: . . . T.Usami . . . . T.Lee . . . . S.Okazaki Y.Nagatomo . . . . K.Honda . . . . A.Ienaga . . . . . . . . . . . . M. Hasebe . . . R.Moriwaki . . T.Makino . . . M.Inoha Or for that matter, replace Usami with the older (but currently unavailable) K.Nagai I fricking dare any one of you to try to call that "defensive". Go on. I double-dare you.
Re: Official 2011 Japanese NT Thread [R] Sexy but I think I do not have enough fingers to count the number of goals we would take with this team.
Re: Official 2011 Japanese NT Thread [R] Well, at least now we know exactly how long youve been reading the RSN. Maybe you should go back to read some of the NT reports I wrote in early 2008, and decide whether you care to back up that statement. Here, Ill give you a head start: "If coach Okada draws the right lessons from this match, we can look forward to a great deal of excitement in the months ahead. The fast-paced, flowing football that the team played on Wednesday night is exactly the sort of thing that allows a quick, technically skillful and hard-working team to maximize their advantages and offset the elements of height and power which generally favour Japan's World Cup opponents. It is far too soon to begin talking about prospects for the 2010 World Cup. However, now that we have finally seen a successful display of Okada Football, it is hard to avoid a sense of relief and optimism. " But of course . . . . I never gave Okada any credit for anything, so that quote must have come from The Twilight Zone.
Re: Official 2011 Japanese NT Thread [R] I never said you never gave Okada any credit and sorry if I didn't every post of the RSN, I was mostly basing my post on what you write here. I just feel that, when this kind of disappointing displays was occurring, you were fare more severe towards Okada. But it's not really important, don't bother.
Re: Official 2011 Japanese NT Thread [R] See, now this is where we must be looking at two completely different things. Because this is far less risky than the lineup Sanfrecce often plays, and though they arent exactly known for airtight defence, they arent exactly pushovers either. Would it bleed goals against Spain or Argentina? Hell yes. But obviously by the time we start playing those sorts of teams, Zack will have adjusted his selection and formation to match. We arent talking about playing World top-ten teams at the moment. Were talking about WCQualifiers in the AFC. Would the formation above bleed goals against UAE, Qatar, North Korea, or Vietnam? I dont think so . . . If you go with this sort of 3-4-3, the key to effective implementation is to have two important qualities: First, guys who ALL are capable of attacking, and second, guys who are ALL capable of defending. That might sound silly at first, but the point Im making is that a 3-4-3 is only "overly defensive" if the back three are guys who dont usually join the attack, and its only "overly offensive" if the front three dont defend. Ive already discussed the defensive players, so nothing further needs to be said. With Lee and Okazaki you have two guys who are well known for their contributions by tracking back. Maeda isnt and thats why I dont think he is going to last long in the NT. Usami is too young and inexperienced to tell, one way or the other, but he does have potential. Now look at the other players who were called: Sekiguchi - a guy who usually plays a roaming ball-hawk role, and is praised by his own coach for his defensive qualities (not his scoring). Honda - used in the DEFENSIVE midfield spot for CSKA Koroki - I know some people like to criticise him for his streaky shooting (as if guys like Okazaki, Lee and Sato didnt suffer from the same problem), but the reason hes a regular for Kashima is that he defends better than most attacking mids. Id say we have the makings of a pretty flexible team. For the record, I always praised Okada for his ability to motivate players, and to construct an overall game plan that worked (even if it tended to be overly defensive). What I bashed him for was a total inability to choose the right players for the right positions, and an incompetence in mid-match adjustment. And that was a criticism he earned. Over and over and over again. So far, everything Ive seen of Zack tells me that he knows how to select players who fit his strategy. If I were to select my own team, yes its true, I would choose different guys. . . . but only because I wouldnt use a 3-4-3. When you look at the strategy he says he wants to use, its very hard to think of players who would be any better than the ones he chose. In the Asian Cup, Zack repeatedly made mid-match adjustments which turned the game around and produced a victory. How many matches did one of Zack's late subs win the game for Japan? So far, there arent too many things I could criticise the guy for, even if I was absolutely determined to be pessimistic. Most of the "criticisms" posted earlier in this thread are almost as ludicrous as the criticism of using Inoha on the wing (as if any other wingback in history has averaged one goal every 30 minutes of play). At the very least, you could wait until the guy actually LOSES a match before starting to grind your axes . . . .
Re: Official 2011 Japanese NT Thread [R] He almost cost us the semi final by deciding to put 11 players behind the ball after we went 2-1 up!!...and lets not forget that 5 of the 11 games under Zac have been draws(not that 6 wins and 5 draws is bad, just that he hasn't lost doesn't mean too much to me with that record). I am not sold on him yet either. But I agree with everything else. Your first post was really good. Edit: The main problem I have with Zac is that like Osim, he is choosing players who fit his system and style but they are not international level.