2010 FIFA World Cup - More Lessons Learned (Héctor Vergara)

Discussion in 'Referee' started by DudsBro, Sep 29, 2010.

  1. DudsBro

    DudsBro Member

    Jan 12, 2010
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    England
    Interesting insight. Some of these I think were discussed during the World Cup, such as flag in right hand while inside the PA.

     
    1 person likes this.
  2. LiquidYogi

    LiquidYogi Member

    Sep 3, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Does he have a blog? If so do you have a Link to it?

    EDIT: Sorry....I really liked all of this. I don't know why FIFA doesn't make more of this instruction Public to referees though. I wanna see what this "Professional" says about body language...or even who this professional is...see if he has a book or what books he recommends. I don't get why FIFA's instruction to it's top referees is soo secretive...share it with all referees, we want to learn and improve as well.
     
  3. DudsBro

    DudsBro Member

    Jan 12, 2010
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    England
    http://manitobasoccer.blogspot.com/

    He works with the MSA, so this also includes some of their stuff recently. Vergara hasn't blogged except for WC '06 and '10, and I think another tournament or two.

    And I agree, it would be great if FIFA is so secretive with their referee development. It's not like they're competing with another organization to train the referees, so why hide what they want referees to do.
     
  4. jayhonk

    jayhonk Member+

    Oct 9, 2007
    Hey, I am all ears.

    -----------------
    (LY was asking who this body language professional is, not who Vergara is. I believe that LY is suggesting that if we knew who "this professional" is, we could look and find what this stuff is all about, without waiting for FIFA to send these secrets on down the line.)
     
  5. LiquidYogi

    LiquidYogi Member

    Sep 3, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Actually I want to know who everyone is :p

    I'm soo very interested in all of this...every bit of science that can help me out on the field I want to know about. It shouldn't be a huge research project to try and find things to improve my game. I know younger referees than me who get FIFAs analyzing their games all the time because they're molding them to become Nationals. I'm going for National but because I don't know someone I'm not allowed to see this same material? What kind of referee exclusion system is this?
     
  6. Englishref

    Englishref Member

    Jul 25, 2004
    London, England
    Jeez, I'd hate to be assessed by him if he gets so worked up by referees who signal goal kicks with the 'palm down' instead of his beloved FIFA's 'palm out'.

    It comes across from that that he doesn't think very highly of UEFA referees. It's clear he's talking about Busacca with regards to not signalling, and to be fair, it's something that annoys me too, as a referee, but does it affect his match control? No. He was one of the best and most respected in the world.

    Sometimes, you have to accept that some things work for some referees, but won't for others, and trying to enforce a uniform approach to the most minute level, is just not going to work.

    I like Vergara, as he was a great AR, but this article comes across as being very pedantic, and has more than an element of bitterness about it.
     
  7. code1390

    code1390 Member+

    Nov 25, 2007
    Minnesota
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Country:
    United States
    He's arugably been the best AR in the world since Sharp retired and never got the final. Not sure if he's bitter, but he takes his job very seriously.
     
  8. billf

    billf Member+

    May 22, 2001
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Country:
    United States
    Well first judging from how you interact with some people here, you can be pretty irritating that can turn people off. Aside from that, much of life's success can be down to luck and who you know rather than how good you are or think you are. Rather than lamenting a lack of opportunity, you should get involved in situations where people like this can share information with you. Be nice, be humble, pick their brains, and ask for feedback. No one is going to come to you, you have to take responsibility for your own advancement. Unless you are a jerk, no one's excluding you.
     
  9. LiquidYogi

    LiquidYogi Member

    Sep 3, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Can't there just be a ref wiki or something? There's no rule that I know of that means FIFA can't put all of this stuff on the internet so we can read it. I talk to really experienced referees all the time...I want something to read when I get home like how I study every other subject on earth.
     
  10. NHRef

    NHRef Member+

    Apr 7, 2004
    Southern NH
    All the studies that this stuff is based on are out there to be read, books, web sites etc.

    This kind of "training" is not something you can read, it wsa probably a verbal thing, maybe with some PPT slides to mention topics.

    I've been trained in some of those areas, and they do help, but it also takes a lot of practice to have any effect.
     
  11. LiquidYogi

    LiquidYogi Member

    Sep 3, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Oh I'm sure they're out there...FIFA is using a specific set of this stuff and I'd like them to get together and pass it along to everyone...not just FIFA referees. Again doing a research project while I'm doing research projects doesn't fit into my schedule.
     
  12. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Country:
    United States
    This is nearly 100% dead-on.

    What bothers me about Vergara's writing is that he blithely asserts that all officials at that level have great decision-making abilities. That's simply not true and there's a wide variance in judgment amongst even the top officials. One of the reasons Vergara was so good was because his rate of getting decisions correct seemed to be above and beyond most of his counterparts. In effect, he diminishes his own abilities by focusing so heavily on mechanics.

    His focus on the mechanics and science of refereeing is laudable to a certain extent. But it comes across as someone who seriously believes the most minute details are important above all else. He wants to please FIFA for the sake of pleasing FIFA. I understand that's part of how you get to the top and no one knows that more than Vergara. But his writing makes it seem like "getting the call right" is an afterthought (it literally seems to be a throwaway statement when he says "No one will ever argue against the concept that the most important things is to get the calls right."). From my perspective, one of the reasons a lot of poor referees are making it to the top recently is because fitness and mechanics have been put ahead of decision-making. Insofar as the good of the game goes, the priorities are backwards. And Vergara is wholeheartedly supporting that here, which is disappointing considering how good he was.

    I still have a high regard for Vergara and his abilities, but this article definitely takes my perception of him down a notch or two.
     
  13. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Country:
    United States
    Wait...flag in the right hand while you're moving laterally along the penalty area?

    Why, exactly, would I suddenly need to switch hands simply because I'm in a different part of the field? Half the reason why the flag goes up in the right hand for offside is because that little bit of time it takes to move it from one hand to the other can save you from flagging too quickly and blowing the call (the other half being that it's easier to see down field when you don't have an arm in the way). Why take that second of thinking time away, especially in such a critical area of the field?
     
  14. andymoss

    andymoss BigSoccer Supporter

    Sep 4, 2007
    Nashville, TN
    Club:
    Manchester City FC
    Country:
    England
    As it was explained to me, there are five signals an AR can conceivably make with the flag in the right hand when that close to the goal line versus only two with the left hand.

    It feels a little odd, but makes sense.
     
  15. LiquidYogi

    LiquidYogi Member

    Sep 3, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Tried it today...felt very comfortable actually...like I had....The Powah to make the call.
     
  16. bluedevils

    bluedevils Member

    Nov 17, 2002
    USA
    Wow, I really disagreed with EnglishRef's views and am surprised to see you in such close agreement. Yes, I was surprised he harped on the UEFA referees so much, but I didn't think it was necessarily off base. I love Howard Webb as a referee, but he is in that typical English referee mold, i.e. talks to the players a lot. I don't personally have a problem with that style, but why are we criticizing Vergara for mentioning that FIFA felt perhaps it didn't work the best in the Final? I thought it was great to hear insight into this sort of thing.

    Are you guys saying what he said about the UEFA referees and ARs is wrong or inaccurate? Do you really think Vergara is implying that Archundia should have gotten the final over Webb because he wouldn't have talked to the players so much?

    Sure, there will always be a differences of opinion on how much individuality referees should maintain in their approach to the craft, or in other words, how consistent referees should be in their approach.

    You are definitely correct on this but my response is, 'what did you expect him to say?' It's one thing to nitpick referees from a certain area on mechanics, but to come out and say in a public article that some WC referees' decision-making abilities are subpar...he's not gonna go there.


    That's not at all how I interpreted his comments. I took it the way he wrote it -- that getting the call right IS the most important. But that was not the focus of his article (or blog entry, whatever it was), so he took it as a given, doing little more than making brief mention of it since it obvious to most people, and didn't delve into it.

    You may well be 100% right on this. I'm not going to disagree.

    I really don't think he is, and I'm surprised you feel that way.

    I thought it was a really good article and I appreciated getting some insight into some of the topics that were being covered with the WC2010 referees and ARs.

    The other thing to keep in mind is the audience for this. It is meant to be read by referees of all ages and abilities, i.e. tons and tons of younger and/or less experienced referees, which by percentage is the majority. He can't get into specific foul, caution, or game management discussions and issues from specific WC 2010 matches in an article or web blog. He CAN get into something like mechanics and the importance of the 'little things' -- which, as he noted, is more than just mechanics or signals. These are topics that can be very useful to readers.
     
  17. o5iiawah

    o5iiawah Member

    Oct 31, 2008
    As a simple argument from Devil's advocate, I think that Vergara is making the case that a lot of referees who ignore mechanics and the little details will find themselves in sticky game management situations, or be out of position to make the right call.

    I see his point. Its hard sometimes calling non-competitive U14G rec games. As an AR you dont always crab the line like you should and as a CR sometimes you may not chase down a one-on-three attack as hard as you would otherwise. I have at times felt too big for the occasion simply because I had done a lot of high-level games recently and got a lower-level assignment and didn't treat it as seriously. Obviously I dont do it all the time but I have before.

    I think what Vergara is saying is that a lot of great referees at this world cup were out of position, didn't manage the game well or felt they could just stroll right into things.

    Sure, getting the call right is the most important thing but being in position and using proper mechanics is essential to making the call. Chicken, meet Egg.
     
  18. o5iiawah

    o5iiawah Member

    Oct 31, 2008
    This is exactly why I always carry in the left hand, and use the right hand to signal offside. I like to be able to switch at my waist for the call giving me an extra half a second to decide. Plus, when everyone is looking at the AR for a breakaway, a little flag stutter at your waist wont be noticed while a half-raise will.
     
  19. MilRef

    MilRef New Member

    Jan 17, 2010
    Carrying the flag in the right hand when play is in the PA is something several National Referees did in the early 90s. Their reasoning is that the next decision is either going to be offside, goal kick, or corner kick, all of which are signaled with the right hand. I noticed several MLS ARs start this practice a couple of months ago, and wondered where the direction is coming from.

    After thinking about it for a while, another benefit of doing this is that if there is a foul near the penalty area and the referee isn't sure if it's inside or outside the PA, all the ref needs to do is look towards the AR and see which hand it's in. Not sure if it's practical or not, but in concept it sounds good!
     
  20. RichM

    RichM Member

    Nov 18, 2009
    Orange County, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Country:
    United States
    Me too.. not sure if I felt quite as comfortable, though..perhaps over time. Only had one AR assignment today, though so not that many minutes trying it out yet. It does help to signal corners quicker and helps you to use the right hand for goal kicks as well.

    I also noticed that when play moved quickly back up the field I already had the flag in my right hand when I turned to my left to start running back towards midfield, so that was a bonus.
     
  21. o5iiawah

    o5iiawah Member

    Oct 31, 2008
    To me, this is like running with the whistle in your mouth when you think there might be a foul soon.
     
  22. LiquidYogi

    LiquidYogi Member

    Sep 3, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    I don't see that problem with the flag because it's very much a yes or no question. I will know whether or not a player is offside and if I'm unsure I'll keep the flag down until I am. It doesn't seem that complicated to me and it didn't trip me up in fact it made me feel better because I wouldn't have to worry about changing hands quickly with the flag.
     
  23. Englishref

    Englishref Member

    Jul 25, 2004
    London, England
    Strange, because I've never had a problem moving the flag from my left hand to my right hand. Seems I take that inherent ability for granted!
     
  24. Tumbleweed

    Tumbleweed Member

    Sep 30, 2010
    Bay Area CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Country:
    United States
    Watching some EPL games this weekend I don't think I saw any of the AR's holding the flag in their right hand while in the PA.
     
  25. LiquidYogi

    LiquidYogi Member

    Sep 3, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    You can make fun if you want. FIFA says they want their referees to do something I listen. I tried and tested it, seems like it makes sense to me so I'm gonna keep doing it.
     

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