Liverpool wouldn't be in the final if Barca didn't pull of the choke job of the year. If Allegri didn't ruin Marchisio, he would have been a huge asset to you guys right about now. Pjanic sucks.
When will you realize that we are neither Liverpool or Tottenham? We do not play in their league. We do not play their style. We are very different. Don't compare teams. Look at the team you are supporting and realize its weakness. We lack defensive fullbacks and we have a midfield with little muscle. That is what we need to fix along with reinforcement at center back. We are Juventus, not Liverpool or Tottenham.
We look to these teams especially Liverpool to see what has been effective. If their style is more conducive to success then I'd hope Juve are observing to see which elements of their style should be copied. Also this idea that Serie A is vastly different to other leagues in terms of style is exaggerated. I am not disputing that midfield isn't an area that needs improving. Please read where I've said that this area requires an upgrade countless times. However, if the idea is to look at Juve in order to detect the team's weakness, then a glaring issue has also been the team's attacking fluency especially the front three. It's been very poor relative to the talent. More muscle in midfield maybe needed for other reasons. However I highly doubt that more physicality in midfield will fully solve Juve's issues in the final third or on the counter. As for Juve's fullbacks, where are the defensive fullbacks in today's era? This issue isn't unique to Juve. Teams have been forced to adapt to this ongoing trend by using fullbacks as wingers in attack or converting to a back three with wingbacks. De Sciglio was supposed to be this defensive option and given he has started most of Juve's lopsided losses, he has clearly not worked out.
Barca choked certainly. At the same time Liverpool deserve credit. They are in a 2nd final in a row after facing very good teams along the way in both CL runs. 97 points in the league with only one loss is fantastic. Juve will win Serie A because of hiw poor the opponents are, but Liverpool will have had a better league campaign. I mention Liverpool because this team has surpassed Juve. Thinking about how they have done can shed light on the direction Juve should take. If we are to look at the talent and make up to noth squads, they are actually pretty similar. Both have excellent attacking personnel. Both have attacking fullbacks. Each midfield is good but hardly world class. A difference is that Van Djik is always healthy while Chiellini can't be relied on anymore despite being world class when healthy. The biggest contrast between the two is medical staff and a style that scores a great deal of goals while also maintaining the best defense in Europe this season.
I don't want to be Liverpool. There is nothing to emulate about them. They blew their league. As for Serie A, it is different. It is no where near as open as the other leagues. Teams play compact. Have you read comments from players who have come to Serie A from elsewhere? So let's criticize the attack. The team has scored 69 goals thus far. Of which, 7 from penalties, 1 from direct free kick. Ronaldo (21), Mandzukic (8), Kean (6) & Dybala (5) are the leading scorers. That accounts for 40 goals. Add Bernardeschi (2), Costa (1) & Cuadrado (1), the attack accounts for 64% of the goals scored. Can (4) & Matuidi (3) are the leaders among the midfield. Bonucci & Rugani have 2 each. Of the recorded assists, Ronaldo leads with 8. He is followed by Pjanic (6), Mandzukic (6) & Dybala (4). The others with multiple assists are Bentancur & Bernardeschi (3), Cancelo, Sandro & Matuidi (2). So if we look at those numbers, the lack of coordinating attack is not with the strikers, is it. But there is a component that is glaringly missing.
Group C Liverpool - 2nd place 3 wins, 0 draws, 3 losses 9 goals scored 7 goals against Group H Juventus - 1st place 4 wins, 0 draws, 2 losses 9 goals scored 4 goals against Round of 16 Atletico v Juventus (2:3 agg) Bayern v Liverpool (1:3 agg) Quarterfinals Ajax v Juventus (3:2 agg) Liverpool v Porto (6:1 agg) Too bad we did not draw Porto. Otherwise, there is nothing great to brag about Liverpool's run.
Aside from Ronaldo, those attacking figures are very poor. Juve start in a front three. By in large the expectation is that whoever starts in those roles should be providing assists and creating chances given their proximity to goal and positioning on the counter. For a player who plays so deep like Pjanic to have more assists than Bernardeschi, Costa, Dybala, Cuadrado is problematic. Surely you don't expect defensive box-to-box CMs like Matuidi, Can, Bentancur to assist more than Dybala, Bernardeschi, Costa, Cuadrado? In a front three, these attackers should be able to combine with each other in a way that is productive in the final third. If Juve played with a solitary forward or maybe with two box CFs, fine then midfielders would need to provide the final ball. Juve rarely played that way. Serie A's compactness is an exaggeration aside from maybe how top teams approach games with each other. In other leagues most mid table and lower teams play very deep and deny space as they do in Serie A. What Serie A lacks perhaps is intensity.
Do you watch the games? Do you not realize how crowded the opponent's penalty area is when playing against us? Often it is 7, sometimes 8 shirts of the other color in that box. As for Pjanic playing deep, it means he plays behind the strikers and the other two midfielders that are pushing forward. It does not mean he stands in front of Szczesny. Pjanic is our playmaker, so he is expected to make assists. He is given a the deep role for that purpose. As for the other midfielders, considering the runs they make into the box, yes, they should be better with assists. Here is your problem. You like Liverpool. You want Juve to be like Liverpool. Juve is not Liverpool. They do not have the same type of players nor do they play in the same league. Here is your other problem. Juve is much better than you give them credit. Yeah, it was unfortunate that we lost the tie to Ajax. Luck was not on our side, especially injuries. Shit happens. Yet, we won Serie A a month ahead of the end of the season. We lead the league the entire way. We won our group in the CL. We had a great comeback against Atletico. We came up short against Ajax. Atalanta exposed our weakness in midfield last season and exploited it this season. Put our midfield in an open game, let them run and pass, they will hurt you. Put pressure on them, get physical, foul them and they have difficulty. They also have a tendency of dropping back after taking the lead. Our midfield is a skillful group but they are not aggressive, physically or going for the jugular. That needs to be fixed. Can Ramsey help us. I have no idea but I hope so. We fix that area, then no one gives a damn about your Liverpool.
Here is a stat that shows the lack of aggressiveness of our midfield: 69 goals scored 64 inside the box 5 outside the box https://www.juventus.com/en/matches/season-stats/team-stats/index.php
Every big team faces lower opposition in their league that sit very deep with 7-10 men behind the ball. City, Liverpool, Barcelona, Bayern all deal with this challenge. I don't mean to be insulting, but do you watch games outside of Serie A? Also again the top 5 leagues are not all that different. Fans like yourself exaggerate this aspect. Serie A isn't this defensive juggernaut anymore. Go read The Numbers Game. It offers a statistical breakdown of each league in recent years. My point many posts ago was that Juve's squad is much better than they showed this season. We speak about upgrading the midfield to help the attack when Juve have attackers and creators that have the capacity to be a great team in this element. 64 goals inside the box with the likes of Mandzukic, Ronaldo, Dybala, Costa, Bernardeschi, Cuadrado scoring/creating is an awful return. This group does not lack talent. They lack an understanding with each other. Allegri in his 5 years has proven not to be a great coach in this regard (averages a bit over 70 goals per season despite having by far the best personnel). The midfield should be upgraded to be more press resistant and in doing so giving the team more control. No one is disagree with this observation. That does not negate the responsibility that creative players like Dybala, Ronaldo, Mandzukic, Costa, Bernardeschi, Cuadrado, even Cancelo have when breaking down defenses. Juve don't do this particularly well as a unit whether in possession or on the counter. I doubt Allegri can improve this element of Juve's game considering nothing in his coaching history suggests that he has these characteristics.
We must be honest, Juve faced a very poor United, Valencia, Young Boys, Atleti, and Ajax and in those matches won 5, tied 1, and lost 4. Atleti and Ajax are the only sides Juve faced with quality and outside of one match Juve were dominated for much of the other 3 when facing them. Liverpool faced PSG, Napoli, Bayern, Barca, Porto, Prague and won 6 despite much tougher opposition overall. We can't say their run was easy while also touting that Allegri's two finals. In those seasons Juve never faced more than two top sides. We must also factor in that Liverpool achieved 97 points in a tougher league this year. The idea isn't to elevate Liverpool but to understand what has been effective. They are better defensively than Juve yet also produce much more in attack. Same can be said of City. I don't think Juve are less talented than these teams. So what seems to be the difference?
Del Piero said this yesterday and he is right. "This year the Champions League shows that, with the same technique, the one who succeeds in expressing the potential wins the greatest intensity: our championship lacks that rhythm, this Champions League also teaches that the management of the result is becoming an excess to overcome, the one who has always played as if he were 0-0 has won, and today we have to ask ourselves what it means to play well and above all at what speed and intensity we should go to do it. In Europe I saw technical, physical and competitive performances at unimaginable levels."
You need to hang out at the Liverpool forum. I guess you do not like to walk alone. You cannot compare the teams. They do not play in the same league. They did not even compete among the same teams in the CL. The one common opponent was Napoli. Liverpool lost in San Paolo 1:0 and then returned the favor in Anfield. Juve beat Napoli 3:1 at home and then 2:1 away when Napoli was the one side challenging us for a scudetto. So I am not convinced that Liverpool is any better.
Juventus lost to United at home. Should we judge the strength of Liverpool based on this? I prefer to look at the entire body of work over this season and in doing so it's easier to make the case that Liverpool were superior to Juve (97 points in a stronger league and a CL final). This does not make me a Liverpool fan, but an objective observer who enjoys watching all the big leagues on top of Juve. The idea that clubs from different countries are incomparable is something we just don't share. For me it's always important to see how other teams have achieved success. Given how poor Serie A has been amid Juve's dominance, Juve's benchmarks must come from outside of Italy. Barca, Real, and Bayern were Juve's markers. This is shifting as Liverpool and City have grown by adopting new play styles. Italy in this regard is too insulated. Italy seems to be unwilling to look outward to improve the level of quality especially when it comes to great foreign coaches. Whether we compare Juve to Barca, Real, Bayern, Liverpool, City, one common shortfall has been that Juve's offensive numbers have always lagged. This comes in an era where Serie A is no better than any other league in this regard. The days of impenetrable Italian defenses are in the past as the overall quality of the teams have declined.
I've pointed out quite a bit that there is an agreement generally that Juve's midfield needs to be upgraded. This would go a long way to making Juve more resistant to the press and therefore more in control. We also agree that Juve's squad, especially the attackers and creators, is strong. To me, 2-3 quality additions are needed and not a revolution. After acknowledging the issues in midfield, where we differ is that I place emphasis on Juve's average attacking play. I do not accept that this has to do with Serie A's defensive style because Serie A isn't all that defensively strong. The likes of Dybala. Mandzukic, Costa, Berbardeschi, Cuadrado can all give more. Juve don't lack talent. I do fear that Allegri's approach in this regard is unlikely to improve the team. Frankly he himself seems to hint that all that is really required on the offensive side is great players. Seeing as his teams have been average going forward relative to their talent, I don't think he is right.
Where we differ is that I think Juve's attackers are doing well. They are not the problem. Dybala needs to be a better play maker and he needs to relish playing in a deeper role, not in front of the goal. But the big ape in the room is the midfield, starting with Pjanic who is not playing anywhere near his abilities. He hides in games and he needs to be the go to guy. He needs to be like a quarterback or point guard. That is how Pirlo approached his position. That is what we are missing. Pjanic and Dybala need to step that up.
Expecting those two to step it up when they haven't in years, as Einstein said, The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Dybala and Pjanic need to be sold, not relied on
I don't think a playmaker/regista exists right now that is at the level of Juventus. Dybala has also proven not to be very good in a deeper role. His assist numbers and chances created are just OK. The big risk is selling both when maybe another coach with new ideas as to how to use them can recharge each player along with the rest of the squad. So either sell both or bring in a coach that can use them. At their peak both are undeniably talented and it's easy to see them succeed elsewhere. Let's see how next year unfolds. Everything we say is speculative. Maybe Allegri isn't the problem as to why Juve's attacking output is below that of other top teams. Maybe it's the players being overrated. Perhaps it's both. To me, this Juve lack ideas and stimulation. A refresh of the squad or coach could revitalize the team. Regardless I doubt it can continue this way.
Milinković-Savić scored the Coppa winner, so Lotito probably raised him into the 6-figures category. He will not be the solution. Pjanic and Dybala can share the play making role. But to be successful, they have to work off the ball and be in a place for their teammates to find them.