Carlitos should be grateful for I'm still putting Ronaldo's name in the debate of the best three player of 2014/2015 to 2017/2018 period, and consider his seasons of 2013-2014 and 2014-2015 as very good (specially 13/14). Leadleader, a much more enlightened user has another opinion about after 2013 Ronaldo form: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/is-cristiano-ronaldo-2013-16-super-overrated.2037493/
Enlightened You gotta live the humour that unintentionally comes out your mouth every second post Leadleader is the joseph goebbels of football forums “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it” That is him in a nutshell As for you... well If whoscored didn’t exist i don’t think you’d have anything to say worth listening to
He choked in term of scoring. But he never recived as many great passes as Ronaldo did. Not even close. You compare target man vs attacking midfielder. Team created for Ronaldo and Messi create for a team. One is focus on few UCL knockout games, the other one have to be focus on all season because without him, his team sucks. But as I told You, Cristiano is better than Messi at UCL QF & SF level as well as Leo beat him at Last 16 and Final level. It's not about what Maradona did or didn't in european cup. It's all about you post here and there that every all timer are ovverated bar CR Pele because he isn't as great scorer as Puskas or Cristiano Maradona because of european cup Messi because of UCL Zico because of big games And the one and only not overrated player off all time, Cristiano Ronaldo
CR had a higher share of league goals because 1. Man U scored less as a team and Barca was more balanced with more scoring options and 2. Messi played 31 matches and Ronaldo 34. Messi was still more productive in the time he played and on a better team. Ronaldo missed a penalty in the SF with practically zero contribution and then scored a goal but missed another penalty in the shootout in the Final. That's bad no matter how you spin it and in discussions among all time greats, it hurts his argument in a big way.
Messi is a forward albeit a forward who drops deeper than most He is not KDB,Mesut Ozil or even Isco who’s starting position is that of a midfield player As a forward Messi’s primary function is to score goals and/or create them and he has done neither in most of the champions league QF he has played in recent years 2.)”Messi has to do it all by himself because his team sucks” What kind of grade A bulls*it is this? Didn’t Barcelona have 2 of the best attacking talents of this era in Neymar and Suarez Andrés Iniesta who is according to Barcelona fans a all time legend in history It is these kinds of double standards that make an honest discussion almost impossible Messi does/did not play with schmucks and no amount of revisionism is going to change this reality He underachieved and so did his teammates in too many CL quarter finals to count 6 of Lionel Messi’s teammates have made the ballon dor top 3 Only one team mate of Ronaldo has (modric the other day) That is the difference in quality between the support cast enjoyed by Messi and Ronaldo So please don’t start with these manufactured myths about Messi being so poor and unlucky because his team can’t perform well and he has to do it all by himself We are not 12 years old
Which Messi's teammates in last UCL seasons, reached level of Ramos Marcelo or Modric ? Who is Suarez in UCL? You are the first one who is saying that Neymar is a UCL failure Iniesta? Come on.... Barca failed as a team in last UCL seasons. Even against Chelsea last season they were poor and would be eliminated without him And you choose only what you want from my posts. The rest isn't existing for You, so cheers Mate
Your such a dishonest poster it is frankly ridiculous Your opinions are based on no research of footage,match reports etc Just typical Barcelona fanboy rhetoric “Ronaldo did nothing,nothing,nothing Nothing nothing....... let’s put some things into some much needed perspective 1.) a.)ronaldo scored his teams only goal in the champions league final vs Chelsea b.)this is the same Chelsea side that Messi could never score against in the CL and he had 6 attempts at trying C.)missing a penalties against Chelsea and Barcelona will not hurt Ronaldos legacy any more than it will hurt Messi’s who missed penalties against Chelsea in 2012 CL Semifinal or against Chile In the 2016 Copa America final D.) the whole point of me listing their respective records against periodic top 6 teams was to show that ronaldo was more influential and important to his team that Messi Without Messi Barcelona scored vs top 6 league teams at the same rate as Manchester United did WITH ronaldo La Liga was an unbalanced league with inferior opposition relative to the premier league during 2006-2009 When Spanish teams not named Barcelona encountered English teams in the champions league they were figuratively put to the sword In 2008/09 A 2nd place PL side Liverpool beat a 2nd place La Liga team Real Madrid 5-0 on aggregate Barcelona had no competition in La Liga 08/09 not because they were great (even though they were) but mainly because the level of opposition did not exist in Spain at the time Remember Barcelona could only beat Chelsea because of an assist by their 11th outfield player overbo in 2009 “ It was not my best day, really,” Ovrebo, who at 51 years old no longer referees, told Spanish newspaper Marca. “But those mistakes can be committed by a referee, and sometimes a player or a coach. Some days you are not at the level you should be. But no, I can’t be proud of that performance." There were several errors and everyone will have their opinion of those plays” https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....semi-final-ref-admits-mistakes-says-cant/amp/ Barcelona should have no champions league trophy in 2009 or at the very least that match should’ve been replayed because they were very evenly matched in both legs
What “level” did modric reach in the champions league last season that Barcelona players were unable to reach What performances do you know of where modric was dominating the midfield In the CL Modric was solid and World class in the champions league final against Liverpool but against a team who lost their talisman and to start with were not successful because they could/did dominate teams in the midfield Liverpool’s midfield were amateur night compared to Chelsea/City and arguably even Manchester United Their strength was in their 3 man attack and above average defence And of course there is also karius who had a masterclass of inadequate goalkeeping Surely this level of shambolic opposition detracts away from modric s performance because it most certainly would if it was ronaldo who put on a world class performance against a team like this Briefly I want to touch upon something you mentioned regarding Madrid carrying ronaldo in loads of crucial games and him taking all the undeserved plaudits(I’m paraphrasing here but this is the essence of what you was saying) In the 2016 SF ronaldo did not score against Manchester City and Real Madrid progressed First of all no Real Madrid player actually scored a goal they progressed 1-0 via an own goal by Atlético Madrid In the final Sergio Ramos scored his teams only goal but ronaldo scored the winning penalty I know you never said this but some here are claiming missing penalties in important shootouts should count against your legacy If so then scoring the winning pen in a shootout to win the CL trophy should count in your favour or shouldn’t it? I’m genuinely confused because there are of course a lot of double standards that go unnoticed when ronaldo is the player who’s record is being scrutinised
Extremely false. An argument could be made here, but Maradona won a World Cup and Carlitos confesses that Maradona was more talented than Cristiano Ronaldo, so I couldn't see the arguments here. I don't see any arguments about UCL, Messi's finals were superior than Cristiano Ronaldo's finals by most media. Cristiano had just one Good-Very Good rated final vs Juventus in 16/17, in at least 3 out of 6 he was a non-factor. What could be argued is Messi's performance with his NT (Argentina) and his lack of final product vs Germany 2010, vs Germany 2014, vs Holland 2014 and even despite some assists vs France in 2018. In all of them he was starter and he was healthy. That's what members like Vegan (Argentine) talk about, I'm sure that he could go further there (I can as well) too. His career at Barcelona is free from all contest imo, though. One of the best. At Club level we can argue, where do you want to start for the Libertadores in 1981 or for the Mundial Interclubes vs Liverpool? Finals of Brazilian league? For NT? That is Vegan's argument, his failure with the Brazilian national team. For start, Brazilians just care about the WC that's the truth, and he had what I consider 4 big games with Brazil in his life, vs Argentina in 1978, vs Argentina in 1982, vs Italy in 1982 and vs France in 1986. That is 4 matches like Messi. In 1978 He was a sub, Brazil tied with Argentina, 0 - 0. He create at least one clean chance in his short time in the pitch (2:15) and other half chance 3:20 Btw, 1978 what I consider the worst Cup of all time (for me it was fixed and many could agree with that) vs Argentina in 1982 Zico had 1 assist, 1 pre-assist and 1 goal (Zico's goal was providential, Serginho wouldn't reach that ball). Brazil won 3-1 He received 5 out of 6 by France Football for that performance, which is considered very good. Listen this Argentina of 1982 was better than 1978 and 1986 judging by names it had: Fillol, Passarella, Maradona, Kempes, Bertoni among others... vs Italy in 1982 Zico had 1 assists, at least created one good chance and suffered a penalty that today would be surely marked with VAR etc. But Brazil conceded a lot of chances to Italy (Rossi scored 3 goals), an argument could have been made for that team: The most defensively dysfunctional legendary NT of all time. Rated in 4 out of 6 his performance by France Football, not legendary, but above average that's for sure. In 1986 vs France he was injured and shouldn't have entered in that WC to start with. He missed a penalty in the regular times, but if we taking a close look at this, he provoked himself the PK with his pass: and created a clear chance to Careca 5:40 He scored the PK in the shoot out though. If we can look he had 1 Goal + 2 Assists + 1 Pre-Assist of 5 Goals Brazil made that he could be envolved. Lost 1 for Italy, tied 2 with Argentina and France (lost the last in the shoot out) and won 1 against Argentina in 1982. He was Sub in 2 (one by injury and other by political decision) out of his 4 big matches. Had he played for another country, he as well as Falcão, Cerezo... all of them would probably have played at least another WC. Here you can see one list of names that are considered by Globo as the best excluded BR players of each WC: http://globoesporte.globo.com/lista...-excluidos-da-selecao-nas-copas-do-mundo.html Brazil didn't had a serious project in many times in the past like nowadays. Btw, this thread is not about Brazilians, but about Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi.
What are you talking about man? I never said Ronaldo did nothing. I said it was a great season and one of his best and that Messi doesn't win the comparison by a lot. A) He did score in the final and I mentioned it. He then ruined it by missing a penalty in the shootout. It went from being a very good to a forgettable performance. B) Messi's first four attempts vs. Chelsea were when he was 17 and 18 years old. C) Those misses hurt Messi also. But in this thread we are comparing 07/08 Ronaldo vs. 08/09 Messi so only those seasons count. D) The stats against top 6 you posted showed them pretty even. Messi had 9 goals + assists in 8 matches and Ronaldo 10 goals + assists in 9 matches. Yes the English top 6 was stronger and yes Ronaldo contributed a larger % of the team's goals but why penalize Messi for playing on a much better team with a more balanced attack. Either way it's not a big enough edge to make up for Messi's better CL run.
Where is the evidence of 08/09 Messi playing at a superior level than 07/08 ronaldo in the champions league? Once again this is a completely unsubstantiated claim Lionel Messi 08/09 CL 9 goals+5 assists in 12 games In those games Barcelona scored 31 goals:2.59 goals per match Messi had 45% direct involvement in his teams goals Cristiano Ronaldo 07/08 CL 8 goals+1 assist in 11 games In those games his team scored 19 goals:1.72 goals per match 47% direct involvement in his teams goals 07/08 Ronaldo also played an even deeper role than 08/09 Messi so the “he played closer to goal”excuse cannot be used When ronaldo as a Manchester United player is being discussed 2007/08 official formation from an actual premier league match Champions league final 2007/08 official formation Official formation from a CL match in 2008/09 Ronaldo was a wide midfielder in a 4-4-2 and Messi was a right winger or forward in a 4-4-3 Messi was essentially forward And ronaldo was a midfielder which makes his achievements even more impressive If this isn’t enough for you Ronaldo was also listed in the uefa team of the year 2008 as a Right midfielder and Messi was listed in the 2009 uefa team of the year as a forward https://sportslens.com/uefa-football-team-of-the-year-2008/20925/ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Team_of_the_Year In terms of position Messi 08/09 was like Neymar at Barcelona,robben in 14/15 and 15/16 or even Cristiano ronaldo 10-14 Cristiano Ronaldo 07/08 was like david ginola,Robert pires,Giggs etc as a real winger in a 4-4-2 that English teams used to play quite often 10-15 years ago This is how he was viewed to be in the relevant time period and any amount of revisionism that took place in years later will not change this fact It will also worth mentioning Cristiano Ronaldo 07/08 remains the first and only real winger in the history of football to win the European golden shoe Salah 17/18 was a pseudo winger and even the PFA never recognised him as such He was a WF or a striker who played wide like Henry Arsenal or Mbappé PSG “It is clear Salah is not a winger at all. He is a goal-scorer.” Jamie Carragher https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.kingfut.com/2018/03/05/jamie-carragher-salah-goal-scorer/amp/ http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/7370319.stm This is essentially the main reason why ronaldos achievements in 2007/08 are held to be untouchable and probably unreachable in the PL. Messi surpassed this level in other seasons but nobody between 2000-2009 reached the level of domination ronaldo did in 07/08 Not Henry,zidane,Ronaldinho,Xavi,figo,Shevchenko And not even Messi although he would later on in his career (post 2010)
Barcelona scored 40% more goals than Manchester United in the aforementioned period That is a significant difference so much so that Barcelona minus Messi scored at roughly the same rate as Manchester United with ronaldo Bottom line he Messi was not an absolutely integral factor in Barcelona’s treble campaign in the way ronaldo was Including pre assists ronaldo was involved in close to 70% of all goals scored by Manchester United in the champions league You know some teams score 20 goals in just the groupstage Psg for example scored 25 goals just in the last seasons groupstage Manchester United won the champions league with 20 goals in 2008 Let’s see how influential each player was in the KO stages of their respective champions league campaigns Lionel Messi 2008/09 CL Ko stages 4 goals+1 assist in 7 games In those games Barcelona scored 14 goals 36% direct involvement Cristiano Ronaldo 2007/08 3 goals in 6 games In those games Manchester United scored 6 goals 50% direct involvement Messi did a shit load of stat padding in the 08/09 champions league He only made a difference against Bayern Munich in the QF A Bayern Munich side who were hardly impressive finishing 2nd in Bundesliga(behind Wolfsburg LOL) Bundesliga 2008/09 was such a great league that champions Wolfsburg were eliminated in the champions league R16 by an aggregate score of 5-1 to PSG A PSG who finished 6th place in ligue 1 The best side in Germany were destroyed by the 6th best side in ligue 1 Which puts Messi’s best performance against a 2nd placed Bundesliga team into some perspective Against Chelsea he was less influential than the ref who admitted to winning the SF for Barcelona So he can’t even be credited for his 2 yard side way pass to iniesta that much considering the whole match was a complete farce The term “uefalona” emerged from blatant examples of corruption like this. It is most likely Øvrebø was just the fall guy for the powers that be who had already dictated to him how he should officiate the match and which players should recieve preferential treatment.
Yeah and when refrees are helping Real nobody is talk about it. Mijatovic's goal 98 La liga 12 Ramos's goal 16 No red for Casemiro but red for Vidal 17 Ronaldo's offside goals 17 "Penalties" against PSG, Juve 18 No penalties for Bayern 18 Without ref Barca wouldn't win in 2009 Without ref Real would win max 1 UCL in the last 3 years Barca payed next year when 2 refrees in two games against Inter, did what they have to do, because of avoiding Barca's defending title at Bernabeo ( Barca's training ground ) Real won't pay, never. They are UEFA's love since beginning of EC.
This is all speculation and bordering on complete fiction The fact that a ‘uefa elite referee’ came out publicly and said he was wrong on MANY decisions (at least 4 ignored penalties and as many as 6) is the smoking gun There is no disputing now Barcelona were fraudulently awarded the 2009 CL Whatever decisions Madrid recieved In their favour were at worst human error from the refs perspective There was no public furore except by some Barcelona fans who were upset Madrid were Making history while they couldn’t even pass the QF I clearly remember Barcelona fans being more outraged than Bayern fans at the perceived injustices in the Bayern vs Madrid 17 QF tie LOL If the Chelsea/Barcelona clash had happened in the Twitter age there would’ve been a huge backlash on uefa Sadly Ovrebo bore the brunt of the terrible decisions so much so he recieved many death threats from Chelsea fans It was a very ugly situation
Lionel Messi 08/09 and CR7 07/08 league comparison Cristiano Ronaldo EPL 31+7 assists in 31 starts/34 games Total team goals during these matches:78 goals 49% direct involvement Record vs top 6 league teams 6 goals+4 assists in 9 games Directly involved in 48% of 21 team goals vs periodic top 6 sides Goal average of Manchester United with Ronaldo playing :2.29 goals per match(34 games) Without him:1 goal per match (a sample size of 4 missed premier league matches) Lionel Messi La Liga 08/09 23 goals+11 assists in 31 matches(27 starts) Total team goals during the matches he played:96 team goals 35% direct involvement Average rate of league scoring by Barcelona with Messi on the pitch: 3.1 goals per match(sample size of 31 matches) Average rate of league scoring by Barcelona without Messi on the pitch 1.86 goals per match(sample size of 7 missed league matches) Barcelona’s increased their goal output by 50% when Messi was playing in La Liga 2008/09 Manchester United increased their goal production by 75% in the PL 07/08 with Ronaldo playing on the pitch https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/lionel-messi/leistungsdaten/spieler/28003/saison/2008/plus/1#gesamt https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/cri...07&verein=&liga=&wettbewerb=&pos=&trainer_id=
The Bayern-Madrid tie in 2017 was horribly officiated. No red for Casemiro, red for Vidal, a wrong offside goal for Bayern, two offside Ronaldo goals that weren't called etc. Now before I'm accused of being a Barca stan, we got favorable calls against Chelsea in 2009 too. I'm just saying... If you're denying that Bayern got screwed, then you're just biased. Even their players came out and criticized the refs after the game.
That Bayern team had serious talent and Messi dominated them. In the semifinal against a very strong Chelsea team, Messi didn't assert himself a lot but didn't have a bad tie or hurt his team and then had a game-winning though admittedly basic assist. In the final, Messi scored a goal and built up play. Again, no penalty miss that hurt the team like Ronaldo. You always give cherrypicked QF to Final stats and analysis. Why not use that logic here and admit that Messi was clearly the better player from QF to Final. Decisive in two out of three rounds with no major blunders.
Messi passed the ball sideways to iniesta outside the box,and he was literally standing next to him He deserves as much credit as Ronaldo who was dispossessed right outside the box which led directly to scholes winner against Barcelona At least ronaldo advanced play by dribbling past toure before being dispossessed Messi did what every professional football should be able to do Standing in front of a crowded penalty box he past the ball sideways to his teammate There is nothing even remotely special about what he done and the same goes for ronaldo How much credit should Messi recieve for his performance vs Bayern? Bundesliga 2008/09 was the 4th highest ranked league in Europe, So effectively at the bottom of the spectrum of Europe’s major leagues. In the 2008/09 champions league R16 the best team in Germany Wolfsburg were annihilated 5-1 on aggregate by the 6th best team in France PSG. Ironically Wolfsburg also thrashed Bayern Munich 5-1 in the league Bayern Munich was the 2nd best team in Germany so in reality they were barely even comparable with a mid level premier league side 06-10 https://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/country/#/yr/2009
Yall sitting here talking about the Barcelona vs Chelsea game, when the worst case of reffing in favour of Barcelona was the red card against RvP in 2012. Arsenal was leading Barcelona when it was 11v11. Worst decision I've ever seen. Have never seen anything like it before or after. The fact that that decision was enough for Arsenal fans to prefer Chelsea over Barcelona that year tells you everything you need to know, really.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....1-reaction-referee-demotion-a7624266.html?amp https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....acing-uefa-demotion/uv3hao5d6xgj164un7gp20dob
I almost missed this....almost Sergio busquets won Oscar for best male actor for his performance in the SF vs inter Milan 2010 With 10 men for much of the 2nd leg thanks to cheating by Catalan players inter Milan held on for a win thanks to some resolute defending. At full strength in the first leg there is no way Barcelona could cope I remember clearly sneijder and Milito completely laying waste to them in the first leg and it wasn’t close at all