€-Moneyball; High and Low Finance Football

Discussion in 'The Netherlands' started by Orange14, Feb 27, 2012.

  1. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Exactly right. Remember though Dortmund even with their great match day revenue are still a selling team. They also are rely on bringing players in on loan to help add depth to the squad. German league does have regulations that make it very difficult for outside investment in clubs.
     
  2. Blondo

    Blondo Member+

    Sep 21, 2013
    https://www.telegraaf.nl/sport/2803901/eredivisie-clubs-akkoord-over-veranderingen

    The "veranderagenda" so far:
    • No downsizing the Eredivisie to 16 clubs/it will stay at 18 clubs.
    • A slightly tougher promotion/relegation system. Currently #18 is relegated directly while #16 and #17 have another shot at staying up in promotion/relegation play-offs. In the new proposal #17 will also be relegated directly with only #16 in the promotion/relegation play-offs.
    • When drawing up the fixtures list the KNVB will make sure the teams that play in European competitions get extra rest. Clubs that reach the group stage also skip the first round of the KNVB Cup to get extra rest.
    • Clubs in the CL or EL will give 5% of UEFA revenue to a solidarity fund. If a team is still active after the winter break they'll only have to put 3.75% in the solidarity fund. 5% of Fox Sports' TV money will be distributed equally.
    • Clubs that switch from artificial turf to real grass will get €350.000 a year.
    • AZ, Ajax, Feyenoord, FC Utrecht, PSV and Vitesse have agreed to no longer poach players from each others' youth academies.
    • Compensation fees for transfers between Eredivisie teams will be significantly heightened.
    • All Eredivisie teams will need to have their own youth academy or at least in cooperation with an amateur club.

    I admit there are a few good changes. Yet the inequitable distribution hasn't been properly addressed, i.e. only 5% of Fox Sports' TV money will be distributed equally among the 18 clubs. For example:

    https://www.ad.nl/nederlands-voetbal/eredivisie-profiteert-van-degradatie-fc-twente~aef337cb/

    Instead of €9.5m for the top-ranked side they'll get €9.2m while the bottom-ranked side moves from €1.8m to €1.9m. The ratio doesn't change that much. Instead of Ajax receiving 5.27 times what the bottom side takes home, Ajax will still be handed 4.84 times as much after the change. This hardly helps to tackle competitive imbalances and the Eredivisie will remain the odd one out in Western Europe, surrounded by far more equitable leagues.
     
  3. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    No poaching rule is good. TV money needs to be shared more
     
  4. https://www.ad.nl/buitenlands-voetbal/brexit-kan-premier-league-in-de-as-leggen~a861ca5d/

    This is good:
    "Geen jeugdspelers kapen
    De strooptocht naar toptalent in opleidingen van clubs als Ajax en Feyenoord stopt in elk geval. Als lid van de EU ontsnapt de Premier League aan de FIFA-regel die verbiedt spelers tussen de 16 en 18 jaar aan te trekken. Internationals als Nathan Aké en Patrick van Aanholt belandden dankzij deze maas in de wet als tiener in Engeland. Zelfs al komt premier Theresa May tot een akkoord met Brussel, dan eindigt dit privilege op 29 maart 2019."

    Leaving the EU means that England/UK can't poach kids before they're 18 anymore as the only reason the UK could do that was because of the exception for the EU countries to that rule.
     
    Orange14 repped this.
  5. https://www.bndestem.nl/nac/nac-kan-manchester-city-beter-de-deur-wijzen~af5acdc6/
    An article about how the way ManCity treats NAC Breda in its "partnership" is directly the cause of the problems and the threat of relegation.
    NAC kan Manchester City beter de deur wijzen

    analyseAls een kleine jongen wordt NAC steeds weer in de wachtkamer gezet door de Engelse kampioen. Dat zorgt in Breda voor irritatie en ergernis.

    Yadran Blanco 21-11-18, 06:35 Laatste update: 15:24
     
  6. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Just up is The Swiss Ramble's analysis of Ajax finances: https://twitter.com/SwissRamble you have to scroll through a series of Twitter poss. Last time he looked at Ajax was back in 2010.
     
    aveslacker repped this.
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord


    Any idea why Netherlands ranks below countries with way smaller populations? Taxes I presume?
     
  8. The Avg wages in the Eredivisie are heavily influenced by what the top 3 pay.
    Ajax i.e. had the policy up till last season not to pay over 1 million iirc, unless it's a special case. But the wage bill of the big 3 also depends on the number of foreigners in the selection. Most of the times these get higher paychecks.
    Also an influence is how many youth players break through to the first team selection. These in general donot start at the top end of the scale.
     
  9. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Canada cannot possibly be correct as MLS has a firm salary cap except for a couple of slots that they can overspend on. Also Dutch league has a number of teams from smaller cities and they don't get a lot of merchandise or game day revenue like the big Three.
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Is that any different for Switzerland, Portugal or Belgium?
     
  11. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Something is wrong with this report. I just downloaded the full report. They list a huge amount of sports teams with the average salary per player. You cannot find Ajax, PSV or Feyenoord listed at all. There are 350 sports teams listed and it goes down to some US women basketball teams where the average yearly salary is $70K and for sure Ajax average salaries are much higher than that. I haven't read the report and given the data look sketchy, I'm not sure I will waste the time. In the words of our President, this just might be FAKE news.
     
  12. TFC Ajax

    TFC Ajax Member+

    Mar 20, 2011
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Canada is likely high since there's only three teams, one of which is the biggest spender in MLS. And the salary cap these days is anything but firm. In the last couple years the league has put in mechanisms to allow teams to spend millions per year above the "cap" outside the three designated player slots
     
  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I did some research and the Dutch clubs do pay a lot more taxes as their Belgian and in particular Portuguese counterparts. Maybe you have heard of the 'crisisheffing'.

    In Switzerland there seems to be some sort of not-for-profit construction (one of the reasons why FIFA, IOC etc. are located in Switzerland), saving a lot of taxes too.

    So that in part explains why despite smaller populations those are ahead. Portugal has of course also the benefit of having a larger market, in South America.
     
  15. Blondo

    Blondo Member+

    Sep 21, 2013
    Could be true, have no idea TBH, so if you have an overview of how countries differ in taxation it would be helpful. Regardless, average wages will be higher simply because the Swiss and Belgian leagues have fewer clubs. The clubs that didn't get in aren't exactly the ones paying the best wages. The bottom Eredivisie clubs don't have much (again, they definitely need a more equitable TV deal). There are no wage bills available to compare yet the Belgian club with the lowest market value outranks six Eredivisie clubs. I guess the have-nots in the top-heavy Eredivisie will weigh down the average wages.

    The Belgian social security/tax rebate for athletes isn't that old and plenty of clubs went bankrupt before the rule came into force. Something had to be done because Belgium has one, if not the worst tax bite in the world. Be my guest and check how bad taxpayers have it in Europe:

    [​IMG]

    According to Eurostat Belgium, Sweden and Denmark are also the top 3 with the highest wages in the EU:

    [​IMG]

    The reasoning behind the rebate was to stem the flood of expat footballers (who had to pay less taxes than Belgians) and "force" clubs to invest the savings into youth development. There's a severe lack of chances for locally trained youth and their situation keeps getting worse. A reform is planned and the (rebate) rule may be gone as quickly as it came.

    PS I saw you tried to "@" me, but it failed to notify me, maybe you rewrote that bit? Anyway, I'm on board in case you like to have a normal conversation. If not, no need to "@" me.
     
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Maybe not fake news but I reckon there might be guesswork at play. In particular for Portugal (which is known for their widespread double bookkeeping, black money).

    See also this really proper study by Brussels University on accountability, internal bookkeeping etc.

    http://playthegame.org/news/news-ar...g-gaps-in-governance-across-sports-in-europe/

    http://playthegame.org/news/news-ar...is-still-needed-to-improve-sports-governance/

    Football clubs are generally not public corporations, nor private corporations, with the legal requirements and force that goes along.

    Ajax their numbers cannot be juked that much.
     
  17. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Here are Eredivisie wages from The Swiss Ramble's latest analysis of Ajax:

    [​IMG]

    Ajax spend €53M on players but that probably includes youth players under contract as well. What we don't know is how many players this is spread over in order to figure out salary per player. Even so, Ajax should have been included in the article.
     
  18. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Just for laughs here is how Ajax and Feynoord stack up against other Euro clubs:

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Yup, totally out of line. I thought Feyenoord was going to take it to the court to fight it.
     
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Bas Dost gets 2 million euros a year at Sporting CP.
     
  21. Blondo

    Blondo Member+

    Sep 21, 2013
    The wages seem in line with the market value of each club and come in handy to compare them within their leagues. Feyenoord v. PSV :ninja:, let's see if Feyenoord can slow down PSV this weekend. However I wouldn't mind PSV winning yet another title and edging closer to Ajax).

    Besides wages you can also compare which countries flexed more "transfer muscle". The expenditure of the Dutch is the closest to that of the Belgians. This year the 16 Pro League clubs have outspent the 18 from the Eredivisie again. At the start of this decade, the first 3 seasons, the Dutch were outspending the Belgians but that gap was almost bridged in 2012/13. In each of the last 6 seasons Belgians clubs have spent more.

    The Ukrainians are relatively close as well. Their expenditure was much higher but in the second half of this decade it was almost non-existent. Ukrainian clubs are slowly starting to spend again though but the crisis in and around Ukraine hasn't exactly calmed down.
     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Why do you favor PSV?

    2013 is the year the extra taxes for Dutch clubs kicked in.
     
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    There has been an extra tax on transfers too.


    https://www.vi.nl/nieuws/gerbrands-baalt-ondanks-nettowinst-van-forse-belasting
    https://www.vi.nl/nieuws/psv-komt-meteen-in-actie-na-uitspraak-in-zaakpelle

    There is both the 'crisisheffing' (paying extra tax on employees earning above the norm) and the tax on ingoing and outgoing players.

    This was the situation in 2011 and it is fair to say it hasn't become more lenient.
    https://www.jongbloed-fiscaaljurist...olumn_over/belastingparadijs_voor_voetballer/
    https://www.jongbloed-fiscaaljurist...scus/voetballers_sporters_en_belastingdienst/
     
  24. Blondo

    Blondo Member+

    Sep 21, 2013
    I'm a Brabander, Eindhoven isn't that far away, long history of Belgian players (Gerets, Nilis, Mertens, et al.; Rigo looks promising of the current crop), ... for me they're the closest thing to having a dog in the Eredivisie fight.

    Not long ago Monaco, despite being a tax haven, didn't even play in the top tier. They recently got trampled by lil old Bruges. Monaco has had probably the lowest taxes for ages. Shouldn't they have a lot more silverware?

    Dividing the (coefficient) points by 7, with the extra fair play spot IIRC, has a direct and quite noticeable impact.

    More structurally, the Eredivisie lacks depth, putting all your eggs in a few baskets. The others, besides the top teams, don't contribute much and they need to step up more often (at times when the top teams don't deliver). More competitive balance within the Eredivisie wouldn't go amiss. Not only to create more depth but also to push the top teams. So far this season PSV have yet to drop a single point and there were quite a few routs.
     

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