Do you feel this is a pot calling the kettle black thing? Netherlands putting money into Europe. Spain is extracting for development or in any case now in deep trouble and we try to help them and then they prefer to help their clubs? I think we first have to separate country's knocking on the door for development and debt assistance from the country's giving it. Also I don't like what PSV did, as it gave them an advantage other clubs didn't have. I believ Paga had explained it was refinance and not so much a tax cut, was it?
If this happens it's a bloody disgrace. As Jan Mulder pointed out on DWDD today, our tax money is going to allow Messi to buy more Ferraris. WTF????!!!!!
Wait a moment--the people who should be really pissed are the unemployed in Spain and at the government Messi and Ronaldo get to live like kings and the populace gets nothing--folks that's not socialism---that's more like an oligarchy--look it up--the rich do what they want with the aid of the laws and treat the peasant class like a mushroom--in the dark and shit upon the quicker this Euro drops dead the better for all---but the inertia of socialism makes everything so incredibly slow and over regulated the no one makes a tough decision--until 63 different action committees have approved Take a look at Greece---they were completely broke 3 years ago--and finally they are starting to comply with bailout conditions--they should have let them drop 3 years ago---and I'm sure that won't hold for long and Portugak and Spain are next
I like the €, and I would much prefer a European administration that is able to further make the living conditions comparable within Europe instead of going back to the old national currencies. This won't solve the structural problems Portugal, Greece, and to a lesser degree Spain face. Spain is simply f*ed when it comes to politics, and they need a more proportional system, not a first-past-the-post one. Then you don't get stupid things like this. Personally, I agree with the idea that the Spanish unemployed will be losing out when this money is used to save Spanish football clubs. Even though part of that money comes 'from me' (well, not really, still a student) I don't feel as being played as a sucker...
Actually what happened in Spain was totally different from Greece and not a function of the government run amok. Spanish debt to GDP ratio was less than (and still is) that of Germany. Economists on the thread can read THIS.
We are massively OT here, but if you talk to Spanish people you notice that, while their economic situation is much more similair to Italy's, their political system is doing badly, and things like education (foreign languages, vocational training) are leaving them behind their European counterparts. Read about the youth protests in Valencia, you will understand what i am talking about.
I understand what is going on in Spain but enforced austerity is the wrong way out. Look at what is happening in the UK right now under the Cameron government. The US is finally beginning to improved productivity in a number of sectors but the infatuation with immediate austerity by the Republican party would quickly derail this. Though Keynes was correct that "...in the long run we are all dead," deficit spending is really the only way out of these types of liquidity traps unless you want to relive the past 20 years that the Japanese have suffered under.
I fundamentally disagree--before you deem me a radical please read my reasoning and don't get upset because this is rather contrarian to the incumbent view in Europe You cannot float up to and become an economy like Germany by just using the same currency. Greece, Spain and Portugal were basically a cheap place to go on holidays because they were "third world" but warm . They were 3rd world because they had and still have fundamental challenges in their countries, regarding productivity ,accountability, investment culture, education, government efficiency, trust in government, oversight and many more. Using the Euro masked this for 10-15 years but no one checked if the fundamental culture had changed. Guess what, it hasn't but they certainly had a better life style and everyone felt good about this. But the richer countries are paying for it. now the rich decided they won't pay anymore unless---- The rich countries impose conditions on these countries--basically telling them how to spend--where to spend--how to live--stripping them of their inherent soverignty and national pride--at a time when these countries have not made the changes necessary or have the culture to change quickly to adhere to this. If they chose to go back to their original currency, it would take a little while but they could protect the few industries that are profitable, advance their local technologies and work their way into competitveness. Sure its going to hurt--but not as much as losing your identity by marching to orders from Berlin or Brussels. As it stands right now they are destined get life line after life line thrown their way ---each one sapping more soverignty ---just so they can stay with the Euro Now I very much beleive they must change their culture and governance but not the way the euro is king method What they are doing is squeezing these countries by increasing all taxes--less spending--less liquidity--less middle class--less opportunity--less life style--and in the end less freedom--losing the Euro like i said would hurt but being a permanent have not sounds worse Sounds kind of harsh but that's the way I see it
It's not quite so simplistic. Spain's government was responsible prior to the 2007 meltdown. They were running a debt to GDP ratio that was quite a bit lower than Germany. It was the banks that got the country into trouble much the same way as it happened in the US. Cheap money spurred a construction boom that was unsustainable given the country's net wealth. Greece on the other hand cooked the books to get admitted to the EU and the government has been pretty much to blame for all of the woes they are encountering today. The EU countries have to take part of this blame for letting them into the currency union. Had Greece stayed out they could manipulate the Drachma to deal with the problems they are facing today. As long as they stay on the Euro, the long term prognosis is not good. I don't know too much about Portugal having never traveled there. If Spain can resist the cries of austerity measures they will probably make out OK. They have a productive agricultural sector (despite the fake problems with cucumbers last summer) which helps and some of their consumer goods are excellent (we have a small bistro table and chairs in our kitchen from a well known Spanish design firm; finish and craftsmanship are first rate). The big problem within the EU is the German antipathy to inflation which restricts the kind of monetary policy that is necessary to get out a recession.
They are not competitive with a Euro as their currency-they need protection as well as far better management and oversight--they need to grow up as harsh as that sounds -I'm not totally sure but I believe the unemployment rate in is Spain is approaching 20%- -the government and the government subsidies to people whether Unemployment insurance, disability pensions or govt.insurance cannot be the number 1 employer for the country----the taxes will always stay too high--high taxes--no spending-- because they are subsidizing the lack of opportunity and commerce you need industry--if 20% of the people cannot find work its because your industries are not able to compete--if your products were cheaper--you would--and you would then begin to grow
You know me better than that Squig. I am 100% pro Euro and I have no problem at all with my tax money supporting the unemployed in Spain. I do have a problem with my tax money helping football clubs gaining an unfair competitive advantage and enabling clubs to pay ridiculously overpaid players money as if we're partying and it's 1999. Whether they're in Spain, Holland, Germany or wherever else in the EU. Also, I wonder where the footballers with a brain and a heart are. It wouldn't sit well with me, buying my fourth Maserati in the knowledge that 20% of the people who help pay for my wages are unemployed and are moving back in with their parents. The irony of all of this is that while football associations in countries like Germany and the Netherlands are imposing strict financial rules for their clubs, a number of other associations don't give a shite and as long as the CL is the way it is we don't need to take UEFA's financial fair play rules seriously either. The difference in attitude at the football associations goes a long way towards explaining why there are such big discrepancies in financial discipline in general from one EU country to the next if you ask me but that's probably for te political board.
You'd have to have a pretty simplistic view on life if you think any country can have total sovereignty in a globalising world. Fact is the Euro has benefitted a great many people and a great many countries. The living standards and welfare of people in the Eurozone have gone up considerably since the introduction of the Euro. Sorry but one mistake North Americans always seem to make is tarnish all European countries with the same brush. Greece is in trouble for entirely different reasons than Spain is, for example. They would each be in the same class of trouble without the Euro - the only difference being that with the Euro, they now have a safety net. The only thing you can blame the Euro administration for is for letting go of financial discipline virtually from the get go, and ironically it was the big nations who started with this. Germany to be precise, they had a bigger budget deficit than the Eurozone allowed at one point. The Euro bottom line is that even in these difficult times most European leaders are aware that they're better off together than on their own. It's solidarity for pragmatic reasons rather than idealistic ones.
Don't worry, I won't. Even Greece was not a 3rd World country. It should never have joined the Euro, and would possibly be better off in the long run if they would leave it. In the short term Greece's problems will get worse either way. I never meant to defend Merkozy's approach, austerity alone won't solve the problem (but so won't printing money or borrowing it). I think an approach involving all three, with the responsibility of EU institutions to make sure every EU citizen receives what he needs to live (like an unconditional basic income). The next thing that needs to be fixed is the teaching of foreign languages, why don't we have Germans or English teaching those languages in Greece or Spain? For the long run this will enable mobility. Europe has been great historically for two reasons we should adopt again: - different countries trying different approaches, with countries being able to copy more succesful countries (contrast that with China, where the power was very concentrated) - Social democracy We need to combine the two, and make sure that the first is still possible even though we integrate our political system over the whole continent and impose standards on some levels. There are simply not enough jobs for everybody in Europe. There likely will never be anymore, at least not jobs with a decent salary, given robotization. So, instead of having people work less, and spreading the job we have, we make people work more. What a sensible approach. That's even worse for jobs in the (phyiscal goods) producing industries. We do have enough housing and food for everybody, so we do need a basic income. Oh c'mon. mixing the issue of unfair football management practice in Spain with the current Euro crisis is just unfair. I am sure that they will tighten the belts for football clubs there, too, if they don't it would just be testament to their political system totally being broken.
Definitely simpistic but I'm stating the obvious from this side of the pond---and like I said when I launched---the Europeans aren't going to like reading this--and it stays simplistic because some of these issues you just won't address So--the Euro has benefitted so many??---my guess is the PIIGS will be in a depression or serious recession for the next 10 years if they play be the rules imposed Germany and the other 3 countries that still have AAA rating will call the economic shots on these countries for the forseeable future--great soverignty there The youth unemployment which probably sits at aout 40% in these troubled countries will become an endemic scar on this generation and these kids will grow old- never develop because there is no real opportunity--just think about that for a few minutes If I was in a country and I saw that my kids had no chance to advance unless they were very connected--I'd be looking to move--chances are there is already a flight out of these countries to places that show more opportunity for the future to your points Globalization should make all economies grow and countries prosper --but at their own pace--if you impose large barriers --like an overinflated currency you are not competitive--then you get rung down by your fellow countries telling you what you can and cannot do Sure the living standard has gone up up up---but who's paying for this--taxes taxes taxes--personally I'd rather have a little more in my pocket-instead of subsidizing Greek civil servants and 48 year old pensioners or Spanish football stars and their Maseratis The economic meltdown of 2008 should have shaken every European country but now we are in 2012---4 years later and with the government set up and beaurocracy Greece is finally moving--but maybe not because there is an election coming up--so hold the phone Spain makes sure their footy stars are taken care of---Johan---this is the tip of the iceberg stuff---I'm sure these countries---though their problems may be dfferent still have a culture of how can we spend as fast as we can--I'm sure there is other monster waste--- allowing them to find themselves in their own currency--chances are they will advance far more quickly
There are only two clubs in Spain that don't have to sell players: Barca and Madrid; the remaining 18 have to sell players to balance the books and you can see quality players leaving those clubs. Malaga may be a special case in the next couple of years because of petro-€s from their new owner. Valencia were on the ropes (and still may be) because of the dumb decision to build a new stadium just as the recession hit and they were on the hooks for loans that could not be covered. The weird thing is that Madrid and Barca could do just fine and live within their means because they generate enormous cash flows each season. Part of this comes from the unfair television contracts but both clubs are geniuses at merchandising their brands. The only club in Europe that does a better job in this regard is Bayern. I'm not sure what match day tickets cost but Madrid makes more per match day than Barca despite having a stadium that is about 30,000 less. Both clubs have received funny money loans from banks.
The amount Barca make or Madrid for that matter from TV rights is absolutely ridiculous.140 Million to say Valencia's 30 Million is just plain stupid. Even in the EPL which has far more TV rights money for the league,the top clubs make 60-80 Million odd. Bayern or a Ligue 1 Club make 20-30 Million at best. Seria A clubs still get decent numbers despite the fall of the league. This is not a Sustainable Business Model IMO. There will be a revolt & will be problems at one point of time. Also Barca have cut their loses 20M,but make losses never the less. I fail to see the point of being so stupid that they pay Ridiculous Transfer Salary for Ibra,Henry or Eto who were past their prime when they have fantastic youth players. Tello & Cuenca or whatever his name is are good players. Thiago is a ridiculously good player. When Villa & Afellay will come back & if Pedro-Sanchez will stay fully fit none of these players will get any playing time bar cup matches or sub 10 minute sub appearances in some random match. I fail to understand Barcelona's youth policy. There have been rumours of Bale & Neymar but where is the place for them to play?? Madrid since Mourinho has come has taken a more sensible approach although you still get a 30M Coentrao deal. No stupid 200M in a season that Perez spend. What I am trying to stay is that Ridiculous Spending in the Transfer Market has to stop. Already you have clubs like City & PSG artificially inflating the Transfer Market. Now a Real or a Barca dont need to make 20M losses & put into the transfer market. This will create a Class Divide monetarily. Small clubs will have to spend to compete with this clubs. You will see them trying to spend more & get bankrupted like what happened to Valencia. I really Financial Fair-Play kicks in & fast.
Yes, they did. The city of Madrid along with a couple of banks bailed them out when they were having cash flow problems. Barcelona went through a similar process with the banks about four years ago when loans which could have been called in were extended.
This is why there was a strike by the player's union at the beginning of this season. All of the other major leagues have some form of revenue sharing for clubs in the top league. La Liga do not. Yes, it is unsustainable and also why you have two teams that will always finish 1-2. You would be hard pressed to identify any big club that is making a profit in terms of their balance sheet. Biggest is of course Bayern which makes huge amounts of money through merchandising. I am very pessimistic that the rules will do much if anything.
What an odd thing to say about jobs. And a very German thing to say probably, considering how big manufacturing provides the majority of employment in your country. Europe just needs to create higher level and more service-oriented jobs that's all. It's been done before when the mines collapsed and subsequently when the textile industry collapsed. The Spaniards don't exactly give the impression that they want to impose stricter rules on football clubs. The opposite seems the case, almost.
Taxes are hardly an issue in European politics. The welfare state is not under discussion in this region. Europeans pay taxes in the knowledge that if something happens to them they will be looked after - again this is about solidarity and I always get the impression solidarity is an alien concept to North Americans. And to answer the question you would probably ask on that note: no that doesn't mean people aren't willing to work. The Netherlands is a welfare state and has an unemployment rate of less than 5% even now at the depth of a crisis.
Americans by and large mainly vote AGAINST their own self interest (not to mention the huge amount of xenophobia despite the fact that everyone who lives here save the native Indians came from somewhere else). Weird phenomenon but true none the less. You can also look at the Scandinavian countries which also have very low unemployment. I told my wife that if one of these nutcase Republicans defeats Obama that I'm moving to Europe. Keep an eye out for an affordable flat for me (right now my choice is Berlin but I'm open to other suggestions particularly if Hertha go down this season)