€-Moneyball; High and Low Finance Football

Discussion in 'The Netherlands' started by Orange14, Feb 27, 2012.

  1. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    New Thread from the Economics of Football
     
  2. The plan to lift the Non EU minimum wage/replace it with a more moderate one. Is that going to help or not?
     
  3. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Could be devastating for Dutch youth development, no? I am against anything that jeopardizes the quality of the NT in the long run.
     
  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    @ johanneeskens,

    You saw today Luuk de Jong performing against England with his 19 goals in the Eredivisie.

    If that is the top of our cream then it is not good enough, I can tell you that.
     
  5. BTV802

    BTV802 BigSoccer Supporter

    Jul 11, 2006
    Vermont
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
  6. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
  7. FCGrunn

    FCGrunn Member

    Oct 30, 2007
    Groningen
    Club:
    FC Groningen
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    There's yet again talk about merging the Dutch and Belgian competitions. I doubt it will receive a warm welcome in the NL, but I suspect the Belgians are taking these plans quite seriously.

    http://www.elfvoetbal.nl/nieuws/170781_beneliga-1/nieuwsbrief

    Ran it through my Outlook translator and was suprised with the result:

    In our football Netherlandswe take too seriously and call our highest often either the football Department ' cutest competition in the world '. Either we believe that we have a kind of Mickey Mouse League, which we ourselves don't even seriously, let alone that we expect of others that they look at everything there full of admiration in ' our Premiership' happens.

    But whether it comes by the first or the second: in any case, both groups have in common that they are of the opinion, that in any case the Eredivisiemore entertaining, more exciting and better than the Belgian Jupiler PRO League.

    Perhaps it comes through that what arrogant attitude that we hardly have a say about the weather in our country from the mothballs extracted plan for a joint BeNe League. A little curious perhaps, because not only lives at our southern neighbors, view the topic plenty also the UEFA has announced last month to investigate whether a joint Dutch and Belgian League the (financial) can eliminate inequality with other European leagues.

    It seems to Me, enough reason to have more accurate to the idea to look. And that's exactly what I'm going to do in the coming weeks. And because-as said-I have the idea that they are much further in Belgiumwith the seriously developing a BeNe Liga-plan than in our, I start with a basic plan that inheritance, as recently by the President of Standard Liègewas explained in our ESM football journal, sports sister-Magazine.

    Roland Duchâtelet took around a Europa League-meeting in Krakow to the press all the time to calmly talk and explained how the two countries competition should look like:

    Football Magazine: Duchâtelet is in favour of a BeNe League with twenty teams, same as most major foreign leagues now. Taking into account the population figures (17 million compared to 11 million) seems a starting ratio of 12 Dutch and eight Belgian clubs designated him. After Demoting three teams each season. Underneath he sees in both countries a first Class consist of 20 (Belgium) or 22 (Netherlands) teams.

    To preserve the balance somewhat, set to both national champions each time the Duchâtelet BeNe promote to League. A possible second climber would depend on the number of performers (degradanten, ed.) from that country. There are two performers from Netherlandsand one from Belgium, then there are two shakers from the Dutch first division and one from the Belgian. In the case of three performers from one country, there are but two shakers from the same country. Duchâtelet:,, that way the number of clubs in the League evolve depending on the strength of BeNe national competitions. An advantage of this approach is that the ratio between the number of Dutch and Belgian clubs start less important. "

    The premise of Duchâtelet is well known. The budgetary gap between the Jupiler PRO Leagueand the large foreign leagues just keeps getting bigger. By the Belgian and Dutch leagues together, creates a larger market, which should lead to more revenue and thus to stronger teams.
    Well, in any case, this sounds like a plan. A starting point to go to think seriously. That we are going to do next time.

    Hermen Jan de Bruijn
    Editor-in-chief ELEVEN Football
     
  8. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    Luuk de Jong is Holland's third choice striker. Now let's all check how many goals England's third choice striker has scored this season.
     
  9. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    I'm sort of a football traditionalist so I hate the idea. Also as we discussed in the other thread, I don't think it'll generate significantly higher revenues for anyone involved. The only thing that can propel either the Dutch or the Belgian league to a higher financial level is international television stations taking a serious interest and starting a bidding war over TV rights. Won't ever happen.

    Besides I don't think anything's wrong with the Dutch league. I in fact think it's bloody brilliant. There's not a single club in it with nothing left to play for even at this stage of the season.
     
  10. FCGrunn

    FCGrunn Member

    Oct 30, 2007
    Groningen
    Club:
    FC Groningen
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Were it not for the fact that the Dutch public could not be less interested in Belgian football, this would be an absolutely brilliant idea.

    (Which is strange by the way, because the bi-annual clashes between the national teams of the Netherlands and Belgium used to be immensely popular. The same goes for the yearly Rotterdam-Antwerpen. I reckon something got lost over the years.)

    There is nothing wrong with either the Dutch or Belgian league; that is not the point.

    The point is "change" I guess.

    The current strength and/or entertainment value of the Eredivisie only came about due to professionalisation at clubs like Twente, Heerenveen, Groningen, etc. That change for the better was long overdue because we were staring at the same old league standings for over 40 years. Some even argued that such utter boredom was conducive to the quality and reputation of the Eredivisie. And some traditionalists (or luddites rather) still do.

    I think that re-evaluating the structure of the game is a good thing and could be a change for the better in terms of competitiveness and quality. (To start with: 16 clubs in both the Eredivisie and Eerste Divisie is basic common sense to me.) We need to keep thinking about this because the current sweet spot we're in is not going to last forever. This is not US-sport-socialism we're talking about; there is no infinite number of second chances in European football. We need to be willing to adapt and restructure, or either watch the same identical Teletekst-page until you drop dead willingly in order dream about the Twente victories of yore...

    Hey, I'm rooting for Twente the upcoming months!!
     
  11. Quackmore

    Quackmore Member

    Jun 5, 2011
    The Netherlands
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Not sure if this was mentioned in the old thread already, but this is the distribution of Europa League prize money for last year:

    http://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/uefaorg/Finance/01/66/11/25/1661125_DOWNLOAD.pdf

    Based on last year, AZ, PSV and Twente probably raked in about 2,5 million so far for reaching the round of 16. Subtract the costs of flying, hotels, etc, and the financial reward is pitiful. Teams in larger markets easily make 6+ million just for reaching the round of 16, but that's a drop in the bucket too for them. By contrast, Twente earned 13.4 million just for flying out of the CL group stages.
     
  12. CANADA-AZ

    CANADA-AZ Member

    Feb 3, 2005
    Hamilton-Canada
    I disagree on the impact

    AZ got 1.6 mil for going no where last year

    -probably 2.5 so far like you say--if they manage to get past Udenise--they probably get to 3-3.3 mil--and a little more next round when they lose to Man-u or Man city-

    so for fun call their total take 3.5 mil

    Truthfully flying and hotels aren't going to bite that much--so if they get past this round they probabaly clear 2.75-3 mil--nothing compared to CL but stll 10% of their budget which probably allows them to increase the budget next year

    They could use a CL appearance as could any of the top 6 teams in the Ered.
     
  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Exactly. Just look at this board. How many people are fan of Barcelona without ever having visited the city. Dutch clubs have lost this battle and it cannot be afforded to get lost in the next phase.
     
  14. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    I don't know about AZ but Twente's chairman has said that the Europa league actually costs the club money. The Europa league financially doesn't get interesting till the semifinals. By ENORMOUS contrast, the CL is rewarding from the moment you qualify for it. Just for showing up on the pitch for an early stage CL game (and losing) you get more money than for winning a full Europa league round.

    The Europa League serves one important purpose: UEFA coefficient points. Financially it's rubbish. Unless you actually make it to the final.
     
  15. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Even if you make it to the final the payoff is still quite small. A team probably would net more by just making it to the final 8 of the CL. In addition, the distractions and increased number of matches for either competition hurt the club's domestic league performance. EL Thursday/Sunday schedule is particularly bad for teams with thin rosters (which is probably all Dutch clubs; one only need look at PSV's self-destruction over the past two weeks).
     
  16. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Which makes AZ so special until now and the reason for everybody to think they won't make it. If they do make it, then all clubs should copy paste AZ's fitness programme. Even if they don't make it, they should copy/paste it collectively. What they have done with such a thin roaster is simply amazing. Put on top of that their budget and style of football and they are pretty much one of the best well run teams in Europe at the moment.
     
  17. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    But it's thanks to results in the Europa league that Twente would get seeded in the CL next season (if we got into the CL that is, huge question mark of course).

    That would make a huge difference.
     
  18. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    How? I don't think we will see a Dutch team make it into the final 8 in the near future, it's just too difficult.
     
  19. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Quite right, they have not had many injuries and Verbeek has them playing good football.
     
  20. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    Final 8 is nigh impossible but getting through the group stage is a lot easier when you're seeded. It pretty much means you get to play just one elite team rather than two.
     
  21. CANADA-AZ

    CANADA-AZ Member

    Feb 3, 2005
    Hamilton-Canada
    The thin roster part is the scary part. Yesterday against DeGrafscaap once they got the lead they took Elm-Altidore and Holman out---they were already playing without Viergever and Martens

    -when you looked at what was left out there playing---they did not inspire any comparisons to Barca-
    -I thought if we do need another goal we would be dead


    still 9 games left plus Europe plus KNVB beker--all in 9 weeks
     
  22. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    You forget the match fixing that is going on. You also need to not have any Portuguese match officials and also a UEFA that is willing to investigate dicey fixture results.
     
  23. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    More money to EL teams


    Verschil Europa League en Champions League verkleind
    12/03/2012 21:08

    De grote geldstromen in de Champions League moeten vanaf 2012 ook naar de Europa League vloeien. Er komt een belangrijke verhoging van inkomsten voor Europa League, dat geld moet uit de Champions League komen en zal deels worden aangevuld door de UEFA.

    Dat voorstel kwamen de ECA (de verzamelde Europese clubs) en de UEFA de afgelopen week overeen. De komende week moet de UEFA de afspraak nog ratificeren. Maar dat lijkt een formaliteit. Daarmee gaat de financiële kloof tussen de Europa League en de Champions League de komende jaren fors verkleind worden.

    Maarten Fontein, bestuurslid van ECA en lid van de professional football strategy board van UEFA: 'Wij zijn bijzonder verheugd dat ECA en UEFA een langjarige overeenkomst hebben gesloten, zowel met betrekking tot het besluitvormingsproces als wel het gezamenlijke optrekken teneinde ons doel de internationale voetbaluitdagingen adequaat het hoofd te kunnen bieden en de belangen van onze clubs verder te waarborgen. Daarnaast is het van belang dat de inkomsten voor de Europa League omhoog gaan en het verschil met de Champions League wordt verkleind, met name voor de clubs uit Nederland is dit een stap in de goede richting.' (Iwan van Duren en Tom Knipping)
     
  24. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Dutch MP asks Dutch minister about Spanish clubs bail out with possible indirect European tax money

    Under minister Miguel Cardenal in Spanish Marca openly said that about 750 million Euro of tax money and 550 million Euro of other overdue premiums should be partly let off.

    This has always frustrated me the most off all. We in the Netherlands pay billions of taxes to Europe helping those country's to develop. Then those country's spend it to enforce their football clubs, that then can out compete our clubs. We finance our own undoing. No American would believe such a story, but it happens.

    To top it off, Spain is in problems, we were here to help out all PIIGS country's, but apparently they think their clubs are more important than the youth unemployment. If they don't care, than why would we?
     
  25. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Didn't the same thing happen in Eindhoven last summer but on a smaller scale?:D
     

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