¿Quién ganará la Sudamericana 2012?

Discussion in 'Copa Libertadores / Sudamericana' started by JAIME CHILE, Oct 26, 2012.

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¿Quién ganará la Sudamericana 2012?

  1. Grêmio(BRA)

    1 vote(s)
    12.5%
  2. São Paulo(BRA)

    4 vote(s)
    50.0%
  3. Universidad de Chile(CHI)

    1 vote(s)
    12.5%
  4. Universidad Católica(CHI)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Tigre(ARG)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Independiente(ARG)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. Cerro Porteño(PAR)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. Millonarios(COL)

    2 vote(s)
    25.0%
  1. JAIME CHILE

    JAIME CHILE Member+

    Apr 26, 2006
    V.Alemana y Stgo
    Club:
    Cobreloa Calama
    Nat'l Team:
    Chile
    ¿Qué club será el Campeón de la Copa Sudamericana 2012?

    ¿São Paulo, Universidad de Chile, Tigre, Cerro Porteño, Universidad Católica, Independiente, Millonarios o Grêmio?
     
  2. JAIME CHILE

    JAIME CHILE Member+

    Apr 26, 2006
    V.Alemana y Stgo
    Club:
    Cobreloa Calama
    Nat'l Team:
    Chile
    Mi candidato era Gremio, pero ahora me parece que Sao Paulo será el Campeón, en una Final contra Millonarios.
     
  3. Arthur V

    Arthur V Member

    Dec 29, 2008
    Brasilia, BRASIL
    Club:
    Sao Paulo FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Vamos São Paulo!!!!!!!!
     
  4. Andrés_

    Andrés_ Member

    Nov 16, 2007
    Argentina.
    Club:
    CA Independiente
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Well Leoz gave away the trophy like NOTHING had happened. Tsk tsk, CONMEBOL outperforms itself every year...
     
  5. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    The incidents make the whole of South America look bad. We're looking like a bunch of banana republics to the world right now. :(
     
  6. RiverGaucho

    RiverGaucho Member+

    Jan 23, 2010
    Buenos Aires
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Not sure why they shut down the thread but as an argentine I have no sympathy for tigre. I don't think São Paulo was in the right either, if what happened is true its a disgrace

    But for those of us who follow the argentine league we know Tigre's security is always below par, there were incidents where river fans were beaten by Tigre security this past season, and last clausura the Tigre fans were able to attack boca players as they boarded the team bus because Tigre's "security" had abandoned the area and allowed the attack to happen.

    Tigre is a small team with fans with a small team mentality- and most of them weren't eve Tigre fans until they were in the 3 way final between Tigre, boca, and San Lorenzo. Please Tigre, go back to your hole
     
  7. RiverGaucho

    RiverGaucho Member+

    Jan 23, 2010
    Buenos Aires
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Once again I'm not saying São Paulo was innocent at all, but Tigre cannot throw stones from their glass house
     
  8. Andrés_

    Andrés_ Member

    Nov 16, 2007
    Argentina.
    Club:
    CA Independiente
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Bullshit.

    I follow the argentine league, and know that River supporters were attacked by the police, and Boca's incident was because the bus was going around the stadium and Tigre supporters were there because both buses went throught the same street and Tigre's bus did right before Boca's bus, plus some of those supporters live in the houses surrounding the stadium(since this was away from the stadium, not right on the exit of the stadium, at which point it was Boca's security fault if anything). It was Boca's players fault that decided to come down to fight, or else they just could've gone away and nothing happens, and also if it had been "because they boarded the bus" this would've been a more common occurance in more heated up matches that therthe were at Tigre's stadium in the recent times.

    In here right before the first leg there were problems with the organization and for the second leg it turned out worse, and one day before the match it all became evident, for one the day before the match Tigre wasn't allowed to meet the pitch, the day of the match the family of the players that was going in a different bus but on the same "convoy" of the players complained that the police made them give rounds and leaps basically taking about 1 hour and a half to do 8km from the hotel to the stadium, and then in the stadium the security staff was trying to stop them to go to the pitch for the warm up, and FOX Sports reports that in the corridors they were behaving violently, though in the end Tigre's players managed to get in in the end and the staff didn't know what to do.

    Note that Osses suspended the match, however CONMEBOL considered that the match was finished not suspended...
     
    SupaMario repped this.
  9. MetroChile

    MetroChile Member+

    Jan 13, 2001
    NJ; Valpo.
    Club:
    Santiago Wanderers
    Nat'l Team:
    Chile
    Suyuntuy is barely ever right but actually makes a point here that I agree with.
     
  10. chaski

    chaski Moderator
    Staff Member

    Mar 20, 2000
    Itchycoo Park
    Club:
    Lisburn Distillery FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Denmark
    The other thread was closed so it did not turn into an all-out flame war.

    So be sure to play nice in this thread. :)
     
  11. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA


    I have nothing against "small" teams who go far. I was very impressed by your country's Godoy Cruz, who beat teams like Boca, Estudantes, and others in both league and Libertadores play on their turfs in the first half of 2011. But Tigre behaved very poorly in Argentina last week. As I have written before, I know that in South America, trash talk and physical play are 'standard,' but they went quite far, and thanks to poor refereeing, they realized they were going to go far and not get punished. Luis Fabiano's red card was IMO planned; they wanted to get SPFC's main offensive weapon out of the match. Look at the replay. Fabiano tried to get Lucas away from a Tigre play. The Tigre player talks trash and punches his arm, around the bicep. If that's normal in anybody's league, I have nothing to say.

    Several of you here may be following strictly non-Brazilian sports websites to get information, and in fairness, you guys don't speak the Portuguese language. Some of you have shown that however similar Portuguese and Spanish, you need translation. Well, here's some stuff you may not have known about.

    - Last week at La Bombonera, SPFC's players were not well treated when they went to "recognize" the pitch. João Paulo de Jesus Lopes, the president of SPFC, stated that last week, SPFC players were going to up the stairs of the stadium, to reach the pitch, and security guards began to shove SPFC's personnel, and did not want them to get to the fied because Tigre was still there. Everything began then!

    SPFC has NEVER had any issues with allowing a visiting foreign team to "recognize" the pitch in any cup play. We've had teams from Mexico, Colombia, Chile, etc., and yes of course, Argentina at Morumbi. Those teams in turn have hosted us (and other teams from Brazil and elsewhere in the continent). In recent years, how often do hosting teams refuse to allow teams to recognize the pitch? I myself thought the Madonna thing was odd, and SPFC is too big a side to allow a visiting team to recognize the pitch.

    And by the way, Tigre FORCED its way in. There were 5 security guards trying to hold them back, but they pretty much ran them over.

    - Violating CONMEBOL's regulations, SPFC received tickets for the first match on match day.

    Furthermore, someone here last night stated that it was LUCAS' fault that the half-time incidents between Tigre and SPFC occurred because he took his nose plug and showed it to Orbal. Ridiculous. I saw the replay. I'm actually willing to think Orbal did not do it deliberately, but you all saw the blood. If Tigre players were incensed because of that, they are even more of a provincial, small team than I thought. I have repeatedly compared Tigre to more "traditional" Argentine teams like Boca, Estudantes, Rio da Prata, etc., because teams like them have not behaved in this manner in Brazil, even when things have gotten heated. And Lucas provided an interview after the match saying that he was simply saying to Orbal, "this is what you did." Orbal said, "ah that's nothing." If Orbal got so mad that he wanted to go after Lucas, then I reserve judgment and leave it to you guys to draw your own conclusions.

    It is not yet known why there was a problem that made Tigre not want to come back. Injuries were sustained, but it’s not clear who started what. SPFC was winning 2-0. Why would they have started a fight?

    It was, as far as I know for now, security guards and Tigre, and later on, the police had to get involved. But I’ve read news about Tigre’s visit to the police station, and the police said Tigre couldn’t really explain what happened. I’m sure they’ll say much more to the Argentine press once they’re back in their country. Their side of the story matters, without a doubt.
     
  12. RiverGaucho

    RiverGaucho Member+

    Jan 23, 2010
    Buenos Aires
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Whatever man all in all I don't care too much about what happened. Tigre was losing anyway and had no chance and in reality, it matters little to me who wins when my team isn't involved

    However can I just ask you to please stop calling my team rio do prata, most Spanish speakers on these board don't call your team San Pablo but rather São Paulo or spfc so please try and do the same. River Plate is the clubs name

    And by the way the player in question is Lucas Orban not Orbal
     
  13. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    And, let's focus on soccer. During the 90 minutes in Argentina as well as during certain parts of yesterday's 1st half, Tigre only wanted to fight. Do not let nationalism get in the way of seeing this. SPFC at times retaliated but Tigre was extremely hostile, with punches and elbows in Buenos Aires and this was the same yesterday, with the same verbal trash talk, although to a lesser degree because Tigre was now in foreign territory and they couldn't (or wouldn't) be as hostile.

    Tigre will be one of Argentina's teams in the 2013 playoff that will determine a few more teams for the group stage of the Libertadores. Hopefully they'll do a good job then, and perhaps we will see a Godoy Cruz 2011-style performance. I also hope SPFC advances from the playoff into the group stage. SPFC has good history in the Libertadores, and it'd be great if it wins another Copa.
     
  14. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    Is CARP acceptable?
     
  15. RiverGaucho

    RiverGaucho Member+

    Jan 23, 2010
    Buenos Aires
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Yes

    Unfortunately we won't be in this libertadores but I would bet my apartment we make it the 2014 version, and as champions of the argentine league
     
  16. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    Now we know what happened, according to news that I just read.

    1. Tigre tried to invade SPFC's locker room.

    2. There were 3 SPFC bodyguards by the door; they held them back, and they were injured in the fight. They called for reinforcements.

    3. Reinforcements arrived, making the total of bodyguards to 8. This helped "even" the fight. By this time, Tigre players calmed down, and some of them also sustained injuries.

    4. Some Argentines tore a piece of wood from a small wooden table and threw it against the security guards; one guard's finger was cut and the wound required four stitches.

    5. The police intervened and the fight ends.

    So we see that Tigre wasn't innocent as they claimed to be. Once again, a small-team mentality. Boca CARP, Estudantes da Prata would never do what Tigre did.
     
    Mengão86 repped this.
  17. pepinointer

    pepinointer Member+

    Mar 12, 2007
    Santiago de Compostela
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    m
    mmmmmmmmmmm ......................locker rooms full of bloods...
     
  18. Kempa

    Kempa Member

    Sep 6, 2007
    Washington Suburbs
    Club:
    Sao Paulo FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Source? Not doubting, I just want to read it.
     
  19. pepinointer

    pepinointer Member+

    Mar 12, 2007
    Santiago de Compostela
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    is brazil prepared for the world cup in two years?
     
  20. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    Aqui.

    And now even some Argentine fans are going on their country's dailies admitting that Tigre's players went after SPFC's players, to SPFC's locker room and met bodyguards... why are the Argentine dailies conveniently "omitting" this?
     
  21. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    What does the World Cup have to do with the Copa Sul-Americana?
     
  22. Kempa

    Kempa Member

    Sep 6, 2007
    Washington Suburbs
    Club:
    Sao Paulo FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Thank you.

    I don't know the layout of the locker rooms and how one can get from one locker room to the other. The source mentions going through the referee locker room hallway.
    I think that if the Tigre players were trying to get to SPFC's locker room through the referee locker room hallway, the referee crew should have heard or seen something and they should put it in their report. It is also possible that their door was closed and they had no idea what was happening.
    Additionally, as the entity promoting the competition, Conmebol should have monitors in the player and referee areas watching for any sign of trouble. Maybe this will be a lesson for Conmebol: do not leave monitoring to the local team or federation.
     
  23. pepinointer

    pepinointer Member+

    Mar 12, 2007
    Santiago de Compostela
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    you cant offer security, for players in a “little tournament“ ...........so from today and tomorrow, you will in the most big sport event in the world.....

    tigres players, possibly were responsibles,. but are images(proofs) that they were victimes too.....

    it has relation....
     
    sidspaceman repped this.
  24. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    I am finding some Argentine fans' comments rather interesting.....

    La verdad es que mis compatriotas no me defraudaron, para pensar con los pies son mandados hacer. Seguimos bien, nos empomo cristina la siguieron votando, ahora sigue el turno de macri asi nos consagramos!!. Que necesidad tenia un equipo que iba ganando 2-0, con baile, con pronostico de ampliar el resultado de ensuciar el partido agrediendo a los rivales en el vestuario??. Hay asuntos que no hace falta pensar mucho para resolverlos, es posible que haya existido alguna pequena agresion, algun insulto o una simple cargada, con reaccion de los argentinos, ahora recurrir a lo que hicieron especulando ganar el partido por descalificacion es ademas de incalificable, absurdo de parte de estos aficcionados en eventos fuera del pais.

    This first comment is from a Boca Jrs. fan. He speaks as the fan of a team who has gone abroad quite often.

    Por que todos omiten que los jugadores de Tigre quisieron ir al vestuario a buscar a los de san pablo y ahí se toparon con la seguridad! basta de victimizarse... a river en 2004 le hicieron la vida imposible adentro y afuera de la cancha y seguimos jugando y ganamos.

    Thank you...

    Yo lo veo así que quieren que les diga: El que empezó todo fue ORBAN que no se banco el baile que le estaba dando Lucas, de seguro como no pudieron pegarle a ningún jugador brasuka al termino del PT, en la entrada al vestuario los jugadores de Tigre se la agarraron con los de seguridad (a esto le cabía varias expulsiones) estos respondieron, se trenzaron ambos,y despues los de Tigre salieron a victimizarse, si el partido no iba 0-2 era obvio que salian a jugar. Felicitaciones a San Pablo, aquí fueron maltratados por los gronchitos del conurbano!

    Yes, SPFC wasn't treated well in Argentina.

    encima despues del desastre q armaron los hinchas de boca en el obelisco ayer...nosotros pidiendo sancion para los violentos brazucas???...dan risa muchachos...ahhh,no se preocupen,q galmarini y massa van a hablar con la presidenta de todos y todas...y la protesta diplomatica sera terrible (mas con la imagen positiva q tiene cristinita a nivel mundial)...lo q tb me extraño es q los barrabravas de tigre q "trabajan" para los politicos peronistas de la zona amedrentando vecinos y opositores politicos en el partido de tigre...no salieron a defender a sus jugadores??? (ahhh cierto q les falto el respaldo del comisario y la bonaerense)...y bue loco...si te haces el gallito de local...tb tenes q ser gallito de visitante...si no te da el cuero...entonces a correr compañero...jeje...(q no se haga el mundial en brasil???...un negocio de 100 mil millones de dolares lo van a dejar colgado por q a un intendente peronista se le ocurra???...jajajaja...ven mucho 678 muchachos...juassssss)

    This fan's comments made me laugh. Funny guy.
     
  25. pepinointer

    pepinointer Member+

    Mar 12, 2007
    Santiago de Compostela
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    so because, some argentinian fans, justify.....that version is the true.......
     
    locoxriver repped this.

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