Ireland: when enthusiasm becomes mediocrity
Posted on June 16, 2012 11:43 am
(EDIT: I had written this before reading Bill’s post, it meant no disrespect for him of course, just agreeing to disagree)
89th minute of the Spain-Ireland match, Vicente del Bosque’s biys had feasted with the caricature of team submitted by Giovanni Trapattoni. They had scored four goals, but could have been many more. After waiting ten years, the Irish had left the Euro 2012 by the back door, with two defeats and 7 goals received. A complete disaster.
Nevertheless, their fans were singing as if they had won. And then began the praise for the “best fans in the world,” the ones that travel with the team and support thim unconditionally, that are always faithful through thick and thin.
The problem is that, in my opinion, a fan like that and is far from being the best in the world. To explain why, let me describe a basic behavioral rule . Good actions have to be rewarded, bad actions punished. In this case, awarding such ovations to a performance as unfortunate as that of Ireland in the Euro, their fans only make the team complacent. Why kill yourself on the pitch if in the end it will not matter and you will get your standing ovation anyway?
Until recently, it happened with Spain. The “war song” of the fans at every major tournament was. “Alcohol, alcohol, we have come to get drunk, we don’t care about the result”. Of course, the team never won at that time, and now it’s an understatement that the song has complelely gone out of fashion each time La Roja play.
There is another thing as well. Those same Irish fans, when they home, quickly put their Manchester United or Liverpool shirts and forget about the local game and the local teams. In doing so, they are doing no favours to the generation of new talent and perpetuate the mediocrity of their team. The best fans in the world? I would say they are rather among the worst.
I think the praise for the Irish fans is more about how the poor result (against maybe the best team in the world) didn’t affect their love of the game and their country. If this was a 4-0 loss to the Faroe Islands, your point would be stronger.
Martin, stick to commenting on Spain, tactics and statistics because you haven’t a clue about other cultures.
Martin,
On your first point that the local league might have better Irish talent if the fans supported it, that might be valid.
On your second point…. what is your point? This is simply my opinion, but Spanish fans were among the most cynical fans in the world until La Roja started winning. Spain did not begin to win because all of a sudden the fans began to care or because they began to sing better songs (although, Cielito Lindo is quite an improvement, but I’m biased). Spain began to win because it finally coupled its player development through its strong league with a style that could compete against more physical teams AND a belief that it could win a Championship. No wonder the silly alcohol song is out of style.
The chanting and singing at that very moment does not reflect acceptance of poor play by the Irish. Rather, it displays that indomitable spirit that the Irish are known for…one that has been shaped by the country’s history. One that says, “I may have lost this one and I may be down and out, but I will carry on with dignity and try again.” THIS is why they were singing. It has nothing to do with being bad fans and rewarding mediocrity. It has everything to do with displaying the best of the human spirit.
IMO, Levante’s last paragraph hits it on the head.
I don’t think that supporting a team like this when they’re down breeds mediocrity. If anything it seems like it would cause players to want to do better in order to reward loyal fans for sticking with them rather then turning on the team and booing.
I would have to agree with this. Ireland have done much better in the past in international play (see the 2002 WC team that nearly made it past Germany), and their fans have seen them through those high points and some low ones (see Henry’s double hand job that no Irish fan will ever forget).
To go all BF Skinner and impose a stringent behaviorist perspective upon reward and motivation for footballers is woefully simplistic. Step into the age of the social and cognitive learning theorists, my friend, and consider the possibility that the same patriotism and national pride that fuels the singing after a potentially-embarassing loss beats within the hearts of each of those players.
People and teams just are not as inherently simple as you suggest. (You’re entitled to your opinions, and sometimes those opinions make for interesting reading.) But I suspect you actually know that.
agreed, now North Korea knows what they are doing. Nothing like punishing mediocrity then good old hard labour camp or a bullet in the head
Martin agrees with Roy Keane apparently.
I fall somewhere in the middle. I have no problem with your supporters chanting & singing even when they’re getting pounded by one of the best teams in the world. Hell, that’s kind of the point of being a true fan isn’t it? Some teams are always in the shadow of the “biggger fish” either on the national or international level and take a certain pride in it. Ireland has 4 million people and can’t be expected to compete with Spain, Italy or Germany.
The point Keane (and Martin) make is that the players shouldn’t hide behind their great fans when they play such a crap match. That I do agree with. The FAI is damn lucky the fans are so enthusiastic because they do very little to inspire such devotion from the population.
Talk about completely and utterly missing the point. The Irish fans’ behavior had nothing to do with the result. To equate it with a reward for a bad performance is just beyond silly.
So what you are saying is that if fans of Belize were to stop supporting their national team every-time they lose, that in the long run will mean Belize will be able to beat Mexico and the USA in Concacaf?
Ok I think I get it.
No, obviously you don’t. Re-read, think two seconds and then try again.
Hard to believe someone actually tries to make the point that the way Spanish fans sing to their national team actually played a role in Spain finally playing to their potential. The main reason Spain started to win has more to do with La Liga then what the national team fans did at games.
You were closer to the real answer when you said Irish fans don’t support their national league. If Ireland wants to be a team that can produce at the world stage then it needs to have a league that can produce players that are at that level and that won’t happen if Irish fans don’t support it. National team fans tend to way over estimate their effect on results their local leagues player development programs is a much better indicator of success.
“And then began the praise for the “best fans in the world,” the ones that travel with the team and support thim unconditionally, that are always faithful through thick and thin.
The problem is that, in my opinion, a fan like that and is far from being the best in the world. ”
So, bandwagon jumping fans are the best? ManUtd, Barcelona, Yankees, Patriots, Brazil fans are the best because they follow the winners?
I think Chivas USA fans are the best in the world. Seriously, look at the shit they put up with and they still come out and support their team. It’s not about the trophies, it’s not about the quantity or quality of the other fans. It’s because you’re a fan and they’re your team. You want trophies, you want more fellow fans, but you deal with what you’ve got.
The Ireland fans are awesome. It’s sport and sometimes “being a sport” is a hell of a lot better than winning or losing. You can both be upset at your teams performance while celebrating their achievement. Ripping out seats, storming the field, throwing rocks at the team bus doesn’t make one a good fan, nor does it change the past or future results on the field.
I think you don’t know what being a fan is really about.
And that’s why I think the best fans in England are the ones who stick with their teams after they’re relegated.
I don’t mean to pile on here, but … well, yes I do.
Players know when they’ve been beaten. They don’t need fans to tell them. Ireland is well aware that it’s not as good as Spain.
And it’s not a pro club team. Booing and yelling at the Shamrock Rovers manager at a midseason game to bring in better players is one thing. Booing an overmatched national team at the end of their run? What’s the point?
And in any case, there’s a reason the chant “You only sing when you’re winning” is an insult.
Not a bit of it. Blogs are about opinions. I have mine, you have yours and more power to you.
That said, if your posit is that singing Fields of Athnery demonstrates that the fans don’t care whether the team wins or loses you simply could not be more wrong.
The song is about loss, broken dreams and broken hearts.
If, after a loss such as this, the fans had taken to the streets, set fire to some cars, smashed some store windows and hung the coach and players in effigy, would you think them better fans somehow?
And remember, these are the exact same fans who blew a freakin gasket over The Hand of Frog incident which kept them out of the World Cup. They wuz robbed, and they wuz as pissed off as any group of fans anywhere would have been. Maybe more.
If Robbie Keane wants to be a little disgruntled about the whole thing, well, I watched that entire match and I’d just like to say that maybe if Robbie Keane had played better they would have won. He stunk the joint up and needs to shut up his old tired used up ass, not wank on about the fans.
The fact is that Ireland was not a god team and didn’t ever figure to do much anyway. If the fans want to tell their players that they love them anyway, well, that does not make them shitheads in my eyes.
Er, Bill…..It was Roy Keane, not Robbie Keane.
There is a big difference between what Roy Keane said IMHO and what Martin is saying. I honestly believe that Keane was trying to say that the fans actually DESERVE better. Yes, he questioned the whole mentality of Irish football, but he also quoted the following:
“Listen, the supporters want to see the team doing a lot better and not giving daft goals away like that. I’m not too happy with all that nonsense.
“To praise the supporters for sake of it, let’s change that attitude towards Irish supporters. They want to see the team winning – let’s not kid ourselves, we are a small country, we are up against it, but let’s not just go along for the sing-song every now and again.”
Martin is saying that the Irish fans are complacent and suck and I completely disagree with that observation because how do we know that they don’t care? How must they protest Martin? Should they rip up seats out of the stadium? Tally a certain number of arrests?Keane didn’t say what Martin’s opinion is subscribing to.
During a recitation by blogger Martin del Palacio of his recent post “Ireland:when enthusiasm becomes mediocrity” four of his audience died of internal haemorrhaging, and the President of the Mid-Galactic Arts Nobbling Council survived only by gnawing one of his own legs off. del Palacio is reported to have been “disappointed” by the post’s reception, and was about to embark on a reading of his twelve-book epic entitled My Favourite Bathtime Gurgles when his own major intestine, in a desperate attempt to save life and civilization, leapt straight up through his neck and throttled his brain.
I find the whole “the best fans in the world are the ones that support their team even if they suck” philosophy just plain wrong. Fans feed the sponsors which in turn feed the FAs which in turn make all the football machinery run.
Fans should protest when things are not done well. Not support until the very end or just be sad. Ireland sucked against Spain but also sucked badly against Croatia, a team they were supposed to be on par with. Four years ago they were much better and ten years ago they could have very well qualified to a WC quarterfinals.
Sorry, I just don’t buy this romanticized fan mentality. If my country lost to Spain 4-0 in a World Cup I would be very mad and demand changes, not sing my way to oblivion.
By who’s estimation was Ireland supposed to be on a par with Croatia? (That person doesn’t know the game, or Ireland, or Croatia as well as they think they do.)
By your name, I assume you’re Croatian so not entirely objective on the subject.
Both teams failed to qualify to South Africa 2010 and actually Ireland did a lot better than Croatia in the qualifiers. Then they booked their ticket to the Euro via the playoffs, so why would you favor Croatia over Ireland in fact?
Um, because Luka Modric has the same transfer market value as the Irish front 6, deservedly so as the best player on the two squads by a country mile? Because Croatia crushed Turkey in Turkey in their playoff match, a better victory than Ireland had in a competitive match throughout qualifying? Because an aging Shay Given, Richard Dunne, and John O’Shea are probably the only starters if you combined the two teams and picked a first 11, and might be the only in the first 16?
The Irish fans were quite correct not to have high hopes for the Croatia/Italy/Spain group (if you combined those 4 squads and made an A team, B team, etc., I think you’d be on D or E before you had an Irish starter). Their support for their team when losing should not be confused with complacency.
Besides, fan support doesn’t dictate performance for national teams as it does for clubs – unlike a club team, where fan threats to support less can change ownership spending to get new players, national teams draw from the pool of players. If supporters’ expectations drove teams onward to higher performance, Brazil and England would play every WC finals. Talent matters.
To suggest Ireland is on the same level as Croatia is nonsense.
Look — the FA is going to re-evaluate. They’re going to ask whether they have the right personnel in place. Maybe the national media will ask a few questions about developing players and so forth. Who knows?
But I can guarantee you no one is making decisions based on the fact that the fans are singing a lively sentimental ballad at the end of a game.
Results are a funny thing. 8 years ago Germany didn’t make it out of the group and couldn’t even beat Latvia. Monday morning is the time to be critical of the team, not while you are in the stadium. Who then are the best fans in the world? Let the Irish sing…
Barcelona/Real Incorporated beat Irealnd. What a shocker. In a world where titles are decided by money, winning is merely dependent on the size of one’s pockets. Great fans, on the other hand, you cannot buy. Screw Spain and screw modern football.
Look what Croatia achieve with only 4 million people, less than Ireland
Ireland’s population is 4.4 million, same as Croatia’s. And Ireland could kick Croatia’s butt in hurling.
I don’t usually read these blogs, but all I can say is: Martin, you got to get your “supporters” concept right !
Have you ever chant when your team is loosing ? have you ever try to show your team that win or loose you’ll be there for them ? or are you the type that by the minute 70 and your team is down 3-0 you just pack your things and left the stadium ?.
Support is needed when your team is loosing, support is need it when the road get ruff…I for one praise the Irish fans for supporting their national team when they needed the most !
The danger of supporting a team when it’s losing is eventually the team will take the support for granted. If the fans buy the tickets and buy the shirts no matter what the results are, why should management strain itself to get better?
See: Chicago Cubs, West Ham.
Yeah the problem with the Cubs and West Ham is fan support if only those fans would support the team less they would win everything.
You don’t know, but usually complacency is not the best formula to win championships.
Its impossible to call Cubs fans complacent they are like Red Sox fans except their bad luck is ongoing however they can still convince themselves that a title is possible just like Red Sox fans did before winning their titles. Red Sox fans didn’t change anything when they won the world series. I think you are confusing fans with owners, management, coaches, and players. If members of the team with an actual role in the outcome of the game get complacent then you have an argument fans supporting a losing team is not complacency
If there’s no negative consequence to losing, why try harder to win?
Who says there is no negative consequence to the athletes and coaches when they lose? Teams that don’t win have heavy turnover (see Cubs, West Ham compared to a successful team)even if it is a national team there is still heavy turnover when you loose because there will always be someone behind them gunning for their place.
I have yet to see a team with decreasing fan support turn it around generally less fans means less money which in turn means there is less they can actually do. If Irish fans turn their back on their team then they can forget about ever making the Euro’s they will watch from the sidelines like every other apathetic nation.
On the list of negative consequences to losing, I wouldn’t think that not being sung to would rate very high.
Bingo. “Not being selected to the national team” and “missing a good opportunity to advance” would be waaaaay higher.
Don’t go to the opera much, eh?
In the case of US supporters, I’ve been embarrassed at Sam’s Army’s inability to stay in tune during “God Bless America.” That’s probably why the guys only beat Antigua by 2.
I was talking about management, and the financial negative consequences of losing.
National teams have an immense financial penalty for not winning. It’s called “missing the World Cup.” Or “not advancing to the quarterfinals.”
Given how much power and little oversight FIFA puts on FA’s across the world if you can find a way that fans can give them negative consequences let the rest of us know. I have yet to see fans punish FA’s in a meaningful way that gets them to do what the fans want. I have seen nations that don’t support their national team and I would hardly call that punishing FA’s it just makes the national team irrelevant
TFC?
I agree 100% and I commented pretty much this exact sentiment on the “you’ll never beat the Irish” blog.
Roy Keane said exactly this too and he was attacked by many Irish fans.
They’re not loved in reality by everyone, they are pitied.
I agree with Levante, quoted below:
The chanting and singing at that very moment does not reflect acceptance of poor play by the Irish. Rather, it displays that indomitable spirit that the Irish are known for…one that has been shaped by the country’s history. One that says, “I may have lost this one and I may be down and out, but I will carry on with dignity and try again.” THIS is why they were singing. It has nothing to do with being bad fans and rewarding mediocrity. It has everything to do with displaying the best of the human spirit.
Levante hit this spot on – sport should inspire the nobler parts of the human spirit. And singing, even under losing conditions, represents tenacity and dignity. Good on the Irish.
WOW your articles are sometimes insightful, but your opinions are usually downright stupid, you think to highly of yourself. TONE it down a bit mang. You may know football but you dont know shite about other cultures. Try to be a little more humble and dont come off as a douchebag know it all soccer guru.
He’s Spanish, it ain’t gonna happen…
Couple of quick thoughts:
1. You know what happens when you pile on the criticism? People decide they don’t want to deal with it. That’s why it’s so hard to get nice people to run for public office or be soccer referees.
2. International sports events are PARTIES! They’re celebrations of the human spirit. You show some pride in your country while respecting others. The LAST thing you want to do is take some internal dispute in front of the rest of the world. It’s like going to a party with your significant other and yelling all the things she does that drive you crazy. Save that for a nice calm discussion at home.
This is all about tempering your expectations and being realistic about your chances. 21 FAs in UEFA that are roughly the size of Ireland (2 million to 8.5 million or half Ireland’s size to double it). No country smaller than 2 million has advanced to the Euro.
-only 10 have qualified for a Euro since the competition went to 16 teams (Austria never qualified)
-only 4 have qualified more than once (DEN, CRO, SUI, BUL)
-only 3 have advanced to QF (CRO, DEN, SER)
-only 9 have qualified for both a Euro and WC in the 16 and 32 team era.
-only 6 of these 9 have advanced beyond group for at least one tourney (Serbia, Ireland, Croatia, Norway, Denmark, Switzerland)
Even with the help of English-born Irish (who typically comprise 1/4 to 1/3 of the Irish squad), Ireland are doing as well as a supporter can expect. It’s a country with three major sports (Gaelic Football, Rugby, and Soccer) competing for athletes, and supporters understand the difficulty and the magnitude of the accomplishment in just getting to the Finals. None of the other small UEFA FAs who have advanced have had to compete for athletic talent in soccer the way Ireland does. Considering the expectation level, it’s no different than Spain pre-Golden era or USA for example:
Mandatory achievement: Ireland (contend for spot in qualifying respectably), USA (contend for R16 spot in WC finals respectably), ESP (get to QFs of Euro or WC)
Success: Ireland (get to final tournament), USA (get to R16), ESP (get to semi)
Gravy: Ireland (advance from group), USA (QF berth), ESP (finals apperance)
Ireland was playing with “house money” the moment they stepped on the pitch for their first match in Euro 2012. How much supporters demand from the team to “punch above their weight” has no impact on the results. Potential is what it is for everyone. The expectation bar can only be raised if Ireland were to regularly qualify for WC and Euros, and that’s next to impossible given their resources.
This is all about tempering your expectations and being realistic about your chances. 21 FAs in UEFA that are roughly the size of Ireland (2 million to 8.5 million or half Ireland’s size to double it). No country smaller than 2 million has advanced to the Euro.
-only 10 have qualified for a Euro since the competition went to 16 teams (Austria never qualified)
-only 4 have qualified more than once (DEN, CRO, SUI, BUL)
-only 3 have advanced to QF (CRO, DEN, SER)
-only 9 have qualified for both a Euro and WC in the 16 and 32 team era.
-only 6 of these 9 have advanced beyond group for at least one tourney (Serbia, Ireland, Croatia, Norway, Denmark, Switzerland)
Even with the help of English-born Irish (who typically comprise 1/4 to 1/3 of the Irish squad), Ireland are doing as well as a supporter can expect. It’s a country with three major sports (Gaelic Football, Rugby, and Soccer) competing for athletes, and supporters understand the difficulty and the magnitude of the accomplishment in just getting to the Finals. None of the other small UEFA FAs who have advanced have had to compete for athletic talent in soccer the way Ireland does. Considering the expectation level, it’s no different than Spain pre-Golden era or USA for example:
Mandatory achievement: Ireland (contend for spot in qualifying respectably), USA (contend for R16 spot in WC finals respectably), ESP (get to QFs of Euro or WC)
Success: Ireland (get to final tournament), USA (get to R16), ESP (get to semi)
Gravy: Ireland (advance from group), USA (QF berth), ESP (finals apperance)
Ireland was playing with “house money” the moment they stepped on the pitch for their first match in Euro 2012. How much supporters demand from the team to “punch above their weight” has no impact on the results. Potential is what it is for everyone. The expectation bar can only be raised if Ireland were to regularly qualify for WC and Euros, and that’s next to impossible given their resources. It’s great that the supporters are able to recognize the magnitude of the achievement of their side simply getting to the party.
From “About Martin del Palacio” below: “I love the tactical and statistical side of football BUT UNDERSTAND THAT PASSION IS THE MOST IMPORTANT INGREDIENT IN THE GAME.”
You may want to edit what I put in all caps, because apparently you don’t believe in your own credo.
Sing it baby! “We’re all part of Jackie’s Army, We’re all off to Italy! And we’ll really shake them up, when we win the World Cup, ’cause Ireland’s got the world’s best football teeeeeeaaam!”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5PT65I2ny8
Yes, the 1990 and 1994 fans knew what they were doing, but these fans are utter shite!
This poster on Youtube said it much better than I could.
As half basque and half catalan I watched the game hoping Ireland will win; but when they started to sing this song I understood that the overcome is not important when you love your country this much. It was literally the most moving thing I have ever seen In a football match, a chant of resistence, of pride for your nation and the love of freedom.
I hope some day I see my real country free and playing in the euro, and I will sing a song of freedom with tears in my eyes, like the Irish did.
aitorfm105 6 hours ago 2
thats a bit harsh ireland has only 4 million people. gealic football is the number1 sport by a good margin followed by soccer but close to soccer is hurling and rugby. then also popular are boxing athletics golf and basketball. no other country of its size has got the same level of competition for participants as soccer does in ireland. id guess 90,000-110,000 participants (think there was a survey about 3yrs back) and of those you would have players who would also play gaa and the norm there is that gaa is youre sport of preference and soccer is what you do in winter to keep fit. we know what our expectations are and granted the last two performances are below them but were not the first team to lose to this spanish side and except that they were just the better team. but still were in the top 20 ranked teams in the world so thats not too bad considering
Croatia has only 4 million people, look what they did to Ireland and Italy. They finished 3rd at the World Cup in 1998
Population isn’t everything. The country with the largest population in Europe, Russia, just got eliminated. The two largest countries in the world, China and India, have one World Cup qualification between them.
OK, so let me begin by giving the most generous reading of Martin’s post, and then by showing why I don’t agree.
I take Martin’s point to be one about incentives. If you give your kid candy when he acts like a brat, you reward that behavior and assure future brattiness from the kid. But if you punish him for acting that way, you give him something to think about next time he wants to act out.
Much the same might seem to be true of soccer teams. If your team loses 4-0 on the world stage and you sing louder than ever, one could take that to mean that the team has no incentive to do well in the future. If, one might say, the Irish fans had walked out en masse in the second half after the final Fabregas goal, then the Irish team might have been shamed into doing better.
I don’t think this is a crazy argument, but neither do I think it’s right. The reason is that incentives don’t work this simplistically. If the Irish team is already sufficiently incentivized to succeed on the international stage, then fan support won’t change things one bit. And I certainly think they are: the Irish (like any other nation, really) are likely motivated by an aspiration to achieve professional excellence, national pride, a desire to individually impress clubs that might be observing players, and a host of other motivations. Point being that the marginal impact of fan support to succeed is likely swamped by all the other pressures to succeed. (Indeed, my impression of the Ireland/Spain game was only that the Irish were outmatched by an all-time great team, not that they gave less than a full effort).
Also, the immense and impressive fan support Ireland enjoyed at the end of the game might have inspired the Irish to keep going and persevere even after a rough defeat. One response a national team might have after getting utterly overmatched like that would be to become discouraged. I took the Irish fans’ response not as acceptance of mediocrity as a good result, but as a defiant expression of faith in their team even in the face of a terrible result, and if I were a player, I’d find that tremendously supportive and inspiring going into future matches.
This article is pointless.
Congratulations on being a fucking douchegbag in order to get hits. In case you were serious, let me explain it for you. Ireland are certainly under no illusions that they are a power in the sport. Just being here was an amazing feat for them. The fans, if you met any in Poland, were partying the whole time and have been regarded by other fans at the tournament as the warmest and best fans around. They are there to support Ireland and win or lose they love them.
Get a clue asshole.
I agree with onionsack and most of the posters here, the Euro is not about winning its about partying. If Ireland didn’t qualify what would their supportors be doing? Partying? I doubt it. Just the fact the Ireland is at the Euro is amazing, to their fans its like winning the Euro or the World Cup. I bet many C. Americans would agree with feeling.
Its not about winning or losing, it about participating. Most people don’t understand that. Being a supporting is about participating with your fellow participator. If they win oh well, if they lose oh well.
If Ireland does ever become a winning team, their supporters will raise to a level that no supporters before them have ever achieve. I just hope I’m alive to witness such greatness. I tip my hat to the Irish supportes, keep on partying my friends
There’s a reason they call them supporters. They are there to support. Criticism from the fans doesn’t help the player. Nice job, Irish fans.
If a bad team starts losing fan support then it’s just going to hurt them more.
Lee Carsley, former Irish international and current coach at Coventry City opines on the Irish performance:
“I’m not buying into the theory that we don’t have any world-class players so therefore can’t expect to live with Croatia, Spain and Italy. Greece won the Euros without a world-class player. What they did have was a well-organised structure where everyone knew their job and believed what the manager was telling them.
We were good enough to qualify despite being passed off the pitch by almost every side we played.
There are enough strong characters in this squad – Richard Dunne, Robbie Keane, Shay Given, Duffer – to knit the team together. But I don’t think they will revolt against Trap as they are proper pros who understand the importance of respect.
But forget Trapattoni; the entire Republic of Ireland squad hasn’t done itself justice in Poland…
We haven’t seen the spirit we are famed for or the commitment to a cause.
There hasn’t been a will to win. We’ve looked scared, conceding inexcusable early goals and before and after half-time.
The biggest worry has been our lack of energy.
I refuse to accept these occasions have overawed this group of players but something is not right…
FOUR ELEMENTS TO PARTIAL REDEMPTION
1 Spirit
If I’d paid thousands of euro to follow Ireland, I’d be fuming. I tell the young players at Coventry: There is a way of losing.
Force the opposition to raise their game to beat you.
2 Mentality
We’ve started every game badly. When the national anthems are going on be thinking about your first touch, first tackle, first throw-in. Your role in the game.
3 Desire
You want to be there, so prove it. Compete for everything so when you are clapping in front of the fans afterwards you can at least look them in the eye.
4 Commitment
Opposing managers used to hate playing against us because they knew what was coming. Be shattered afterwards. Atone for the poor performances in the first two games with a high energy showing.”
Sorry Martin, but I think you misunderstood the Irish on this one. I for one thought their singing was one of the most beautiful moments I have seen in football. They weren’t rewarding their team but rather were mourning their loss – through song. As a Mexican I’ve always felt the Irish are something like kindred spirits. Just like when we had the mariachis play El Rey at my grandpa’s funeral, the Irish also mourn through song. You can ber your arse I’d be belting out Cielito Lindo with everyone had it been my team in their shoes. It was Sadness and Beauty all at once.
I don’t like that part about the Mexican mentality either, to be honest…
See but I don’t think this had anything to do with mentality. Personally, the only mentality I’ve never much cared for is the whole mexican crabs one that the mexican media display on a daily basis.
When life gives us lemons, some of us choose to get a whole bunch of steak and make carne asada. Hay que darle gusto al gusto. Loss is every bit a part of life as winning. You learn from it and move on, or you can sulk and cry and throw a pity party. The Irish had more class than that.
Chanclas……………….. Spot on.. This had nothing to do with “soccer mentality.” Los Irlandeses asaron arrachera!
If any of you are dumb enough to believe that the Chicago Cubs suck because their fans are complacent is simply a moron. Organizations win championships. Barcelona won 3 Champions Leagues in half a decade because they set their player development up properly and built a core of young players that all played the same style with chilling ruthlessness. The Cubs have sucked for a century because of organizational incompetence that prevents them from stockpiling talent. There are also market forces like the Yankees stockpiling talent, etc. etc. If you honestly think fans have an effect on organizational behavior then you are mind numbingly niave. Please note that Manchester United fans went nuts about the Glazers takeover. The Glazers still took over. Then a few years passed and they did the whole Green and Gold campaign and nothing happened either. Also look at Blackburn Rovers and their fans this year. They want Venky’s to sell the club and Keane to be sacked. Go ahead and ask them how all of the signs and protests worked out?
Listen, I’m from Cleveland. We haven’t won anything for half a century. The reason support like Ireland showed the other day is lauded is because it helps people deal with suffering and struggle. It’s incredible the sense of community it can build, and occasionally – just occasionally – it can help the players to dig out one more tackle or make one more gut busting run.
I didn’t think what I wrote was so obtuse, but obviously it was, since so many of you misread it.
I didn’t say the Cubs are bad because the FANS are complacent, I said it’s because the MANAGEMENT is. Putting out a bad team has no effect on their wallets, so instead of making an effort to improve, they sit back and count the money.
Cubs fans can take the Oakland A’s approach of punishing management financially but what happens then is the owner tries to move the team. The owners and management have way more leverage then the fans can ever have lack of support doesn’t create winning teams.
You’re better than this Martin. I get the feeling your intentions in this specific are merely to rile people up and to generate some “controversy” in the bigsoccer universe lol. Too many sports bloggers/columnists fall into that trap of just being bombastic baiters. Well, maybe it’s not a trap, some regrettably end up making a pretty good living off of this, but I’m going to assume that this is an anomaly.
I’m not and have never been someone to start a controversy just for the sake of it, I believe in what I say. If most people don’t, so be it.
Martin, you ought to know that footballing matters and fan behavior are two completely separate entities. The criticism and derision should be heaped on the players and coaches. Whelan and Andrews played like they had been pulled in off the street.
As for the fans, if anything they sent a message that this team is nowhere near worthy of its fans.
While a lot of casual fans will look at Ireland’s performance and (rightly) say “they’re a crap team” it didn’t have to be this way. Not only have they played with no heart so far, it’s like they forgot what sport they were playing entirely. That’s on the coaching staff and the team itself.
The supporters are wonderful but traditionally Ireland has played above their heads in these competitions and done so with guts, never-say-die attitude and some semblance of technical ability. They disgraced themselves this time.
Bill has a good point about what they were actually singing. It’s not like they were singing “When Irish Eyes Are Smiling.”
As for supporting the domestic league, a lot of American, Korean, Australian, and other countries’ fans would do well to keep Martin’s other point in mind.
For a guy who claims that “passion is the most important ingredient in the game” you have utterly missed the bus on your blog post.
Shakespeare said: “The true measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort, but where he stands in times of challenge and controversy.”
The Irish fans showed their true measure. If the result were reversed I’m sure the Spanish fans would have shown theirs too, and we wouldn’t be so pleased with them.
Perhaps the last decade or so of success that Spain has enjoyed has made you forget that some Nations teams enter into tournaments fully understanding that they are not good enough to win. Yet they still take the field wearing the crest of their nations, and their fans still sing songs, and wave their colors with their heads held high. No matter the result.
Maybe the next opponent Spain beats 4-0 will have the sorrowfull and wailing reaction that you were hoping for.
But not the Irish.
praise by the fans of a 4-0 loss is the same or worst as a moral victory.
Just look at the results. The gringos praise their destruction by Mexico all the time and they will not get better because of that.
Huh?
Please show me an example of “gringos praising their destruction by Mexico”, cause I’ve never seen that.
I am offended that you use the word “gringo”
okay gringo. STFU
So Martin, you only sing when you’re winning?
I don’t sing when I lose 4-0 after losing 3-1. If my team was brave and gave it all on the pitch, I sing, if my team sucked, I don’t.
The Irish players did give it all on the pitch. They were simply outclassed by a much, much, much better team. If you think that the players showed no effort in this loss, then that is another thing entirely.
Also, if you think that athletes, especially ones representing their country on a national team, are not unhappy when they lose no matter what the fans are singing (or not singing), if you think that they will become complacent simply because of fans singing to them, if you think they stop trying because of all this, you’re wrong. The mind of an athlete (at least the vast majority of athletes) does not work this way.
Even given the dire predictions for the Irish team, they performed well below expectations. I don’t think there was a soul (well, an informed soul) wearing Green on Thursday that was proud of the way Trappatoni’s team played. But the fans weren’t about to let the poor performance on the field deny them their chance to show their pride in their nation, or display to the team that had performed so horrendously that their fans were still behind them.
I was at a game like this once. Galaxy 1-4 Necaxa in ’03 at CSU Fullerton, and it wasn’t even that close. The handful of Galaxy fans in attendance sang the whole time. We weren’t proud of our team’s performance, but we were still proud of who we were as Galaxy fans. There’s a huge difference. It was my proudest moment as a fan, and I imagine the 40k or so Irish fans who were at the Spain game feel the same way.
I praise Irish fans. They really know how to enjoy football !
Martin, being that you are in an American forum you were bound to have a difficult time with this subject. You see the U.S still lacks in it’s football culture; in a country were co-ed little league soccer, sharing orange wedges with the rival team at half time, and even a 10th place finish wins a trophy is the norm well signing after a Craptacular exit seems beautiful. This mentality breeds mediocrity in the kids watching in the stands or at home that will go on to become players and their beliefs of what their teams are capable of becomes their reality. Mexico was pretty much the same; happy to just compete. However, the mentality and expectations of the Mexican team have changed. I have often heard the comparison that the Irish are the Mexicans of Europe. Not anymore, now they are the Central Americans of Europe.
Hey, the troll’s out from under the bridge!
I was at the game last night in Poznan and I heard constant profanity-laced, screaming complaints from the Irish supporters about their team’s lack of skill, cohesion, and in some cases their laziness.
Sure, they love their country and sing about that before, during, and after the match. If the author’s interpretation of that is some kind of indifference amongst the fans about their team’s success or failure, then he really needs to sit with the Irish fans during a match and not put so much stock into whatever it is he’s reading that has given him such an inaccurate perception.
(And by “their” laziness I mean Robbie Keane)
England fans have taken to booing poor performances as early as half time.
As a result, as noted by Fabio Capello, England players actually became more nervous when playing at home.
As for the League of Ireland, supporting those teams won’t do a thing for player development. It’s a very low level league and always has been, even when it was well attended. For better or worse, any player in Ireland with any talent will be signed by English or Scottish clubs, often well before they turn professional.
Perhaps they should do what the Spanish did foryears and pretend they are Italian. That kept them from committing suicide until Spain was actually any good.
About Martin del Palacio
My name is Martín del Palacio Langer, I live in Barcelona and I'm a freelance contributor to FIFA.com, World Soccer magazine, Kicker, MedioTiempo.com, PasionSports and some other publications around the world. I love the tactical and statistical side of football but understand that passion is the most important ingredient in the game. Hope you enjoy this blog and feel free to contact me in the comments section or in www.twitter.com/martindelpENG (for English) and www.twitter.com/martindelp (for Spanish)Popular Store Items
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