What We’ve Learned: US v Slovenia (and US v France) & an Apology to Edson Buddle
Posted on November 16, 2011 5:08 am
The guys discuss the US v Slovenia match and US v France and ask: what have we learned? On the Straight Red Card.
13 Responses to What We’ve Learned: US v Slovenia (and US v France) & an Apology to Edson Buddle
“It looks weird, the way Beckerman runs.”
Clearly he cannot mark or run.
I think the shape we played was something of a 4-3-1-2. I’m not so convinced that we wouldn’t be able to play the 4-5-1, because we didn’t see it with a competent right midfielder in the place of Daniel Williams, and a central midfielder that can actually complete a forward pass in the final third in the place of Maurice Edu.
However, there’s no doubt the 4-4-2 diamond/4-3-1-2 worked for us. I wonder where Landon fits in when he comes back though… Possibly in place of Fabian Johnson playing as one of the central midfielders the way he did against Costa Rica.
Isaac- an interesting take on the formation. At times it certainly could have been a 4-3-1-2, although i will say that Beckerman certainly stayed more centrally and further back then Johnson and Bradley. Bradley and Johnson covered those sides quite extensively, so perhaps:
4-3-1-2 on defense
4-4-2 with a diamond midfield in the attack.
Either way we created more chances and scored more goals in 45 minutes then we did under a 4-5-1
Not sure what you call it in the US, but the “4-2-2-2″ you mention it typically called a 4-4-2 “double-6″ formation where the deep CMs are actually DMs. It is not refered to as a “4-2-2-2″ in any coaching circle I know.
The 4-4-2 “diamond” is with 1 DM and 1 AM and is not the same as the double-6 4-4-2. The double-6 and diamond are two totally different formations. Hoever, you can flex between the two.
Lastly, the “4-5-1″ you were talking about was actually the 4-2-3-1 which is en vogue in Germany right now AND is the formation that the German national team under Loew have been very successful with. The 4-2-3-1 is NOT the same as the 4-5-1.
Since you’re a long time listener I’m sure you’re aware that Brett and Derek started calling Bob’s modified 4-4-2 a 4-2-2-2 sometime ago (a couple years ago), just to clarify how it is different.
The term “4-5-1″ is often used to generally describe any formation with 5 midfielders and 1 striker. The interchangeability and position of those 5 midfielders can be modified and balanced in different ways. While I’m sure its all the rage in Germany right now, and works just fine for highly skilled teams who also have the technical savvy to understand when to attack and when to pull back, it so far has been “hard to watch” when the USMNT plays whatever form of it we’ve been watching under JK. All that said, in very technical terms, I understand (since I made the pics to go along with the show) that a 4-2-3-1 is very different from a literal 4-5-1.
Well, you guys may call it a 4-2-2-2, but that does not mean it is correct or understandable. Most who go through licensed coaching programs are taught to refer to the two formations as either the “double 6″ or “diamond” midfields. A 4-2-2-2 was something historcially totally different than either the double-6 or diamond formations.
I don’t quite get your logic on the 4-5-1. If the 4-5-1 is “often used to generally describe any formation with 5 midfielders and 1 striker”, then why bother with a 4-1-4-1 and not simply call THAT a 4-5-1? Yet many, many people in European coaching circles to NOT call a 4-1-4-1 a 4-5-1…they are two ENTIRELY different formations. As are the 4-5-1 and the 4-2-3-1.
Maybe it’s an American thing. Maybe it’s because you guys did not go through coaching theory classes above a Grade C. But to say a 4-5-1 = 4-2-3-1 is just wrong, as is calling a 4-2-2-2 the same as the double-6. Tactically they are TOTALLY different formations. It would be akin to me calling all Americans Canadians because you guys look alike and live on the same continent. Just sayin’.
a 4-2-3-1 and a 4-5-1 are not exactly the same obviously but they both use 4 defenders, 5 mids, and 1 forward. I view the 4-5-1 as the archetype and all the variations as sub-types. Doesn’t make each formation equivocal tactically but stop acting like they’re so different that we’re all morons for suggesting otherwise. While every formation might have some tendencies attached to it, formations are largely irrelevant once the whistle blows: Players/formations should be able to adapt to the situation at hand. Also you’re little “You’re just stupid Americans, what do you know” comment is completely unnecessary.
I do believe mexico plays with 5 midfielders and one striker, its been working well for them, so its not just the top top teams who are doing it (spain, germany, netherlands) but also teams with skilled wingers, i think that’s what the u.s is missing, and i don’t think putting dempsey and donovan on the wings is the answer for klinsman if he wants to implement a 4-5-1 because they both play better either centrally or in the second striker/striker role. so yeah 4-3-1-2 is what klinsy should stick to.
…also dont you guys wish we had miguel angel ponce as a left back, the guy kills it for chivas, and killed it in the pan-am games for mexico.
Yeah, I was happy with 4-4-2. Would be interesting to try Landon at the top of the diamond with Dempsey at forward, or vice versa.
I was happy to see a 4-4-2 diamond. According to “the plan” we’re supposed to be developing into playing a 4-3-3 (in a 4-2-1-3 or a 4-1-2-3). I don’t see where the 4-5-1 fits in. Lastly for the plan a 4-4-2 diamond is mentioned as a formation that can be used by upper ages, “provides more space in the wide ares of the field for the outside backs to move forward and join the attack.”
Seeing the 4-4-2 diamond I had a “…finally” moment in my mind.
A good segment from the SRC.
P.S. Good to see Bradley on the field again. And I’m hoping to not see the 4-5-1 again, I’m assuming it was a remedial formation. til we could have other strikers ‘in shape’ enough to run a diamond formation or a 4-3-3.
no one likes the player sketches? no one?
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